Brexit now = CETA +/-?

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This topic contains 855 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by The VFM Addict 8 hours, 49 minutes ago.

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  • #22765

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps

    I must confess to being totally uncertain why the UK has been pratting about for the last 12 months. By all accounts when ‘submarine’ May at last emerged all she did was to unveil a slight modification of the Canadian deal(CETA) with the EU.

    The +/- comes about as there will still be free movement of EU citizens across the borderless Ulster/Eire border, albeit with no rights of abode, but that never troubles the people smugglers. There is also uncertainty over our biggest export earner – the Financial Sector. The EU court will arbitrate all trade deals and the Court of Human Misrights will remain unchanged. (This was never part of Brexit and cannot be untangled from the Northern Ireland Friday Agreement).

    It strikes me that the last six months has been all about internal rifts in the Conservative Party and banging blimp heads together.

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  • #22829

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 213

    Sir, you do a disservice to toads by such statements…… ;lol

     

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #22830

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 1,584

     

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    #22839

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,277

    The problem with Corbyn is the same problem that has always been associated with Left wing Labour politicians: the possibility of a Communist Party Card somewhere in their past. My brother was a dyed – in – the wool Labour Party activist, a District Councillor who was sacked by the local Party organisation after the Miners Strike, in our pit village. I wrote much of his material and he told me a lot about the local Party, several of whom had provable connections to the CP. The Party used the excuse that he worked with Tory members of the District Council, to get certain village projects off the ground. These included a new Sheltered Housing complex of flats and bungalows, and a restoration of the old Colliery site, which is now a beauty spot of  fishing lakes and woods, with paths and walks between two villages which once were black with soot.

    The rise of the UDM, after the CP members of the local NUM were dismissed for backing Scargill (who doubts he has a CP card? I know he does!) was accompanied in our village by my brother being re-elected as an Independent Labour candidate, with an increased majority. Because the voters could see what he had achieved for them and our village. My granddad, as I have said here before, was a founder member of the Independent Labour Party at the turn of the 19th century: I was steeped in Labour (not Socialist) history from a young age. I even flirted with the CP myself at 17, after meeting a lad whose dad was a Mansfield CP activist and candidate (failed). I soon enough learned that all the Russian “Proletariat Paradise” tractor and agricultural output figures, were BS, just like the whole CP agenda and totalitarian ambitions.

    It may come as a surprise to some that certain significant Labour figures of the 20th century were originally at least Communist sympathisers, if not actual members. Much of that concerned certain people who became politically active and some in government, as a reaction to service in WWII. There is of course, the other side of the coin: Burgess, MacLean and Philby were upper class, Oxbridge educated traitors. They are always among us: not paranoia, simple fact.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #22856

    The Duke
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    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,977

    The kids like JC, somehow they like him. I can only really speak for my are and Liverpool. Liverpool is a very  Left place ad it is, when JC was here, he had a huge student age turnout. Also at tramere fc when he was the there, the fan all started chanting his name. I heard similar things happened at a number of festivals.

    . I personally have nothing against socialism, im far more left leaning than right I think.

    Though I have some strong right leanings too. I suppose most people do.

    I’m also a self titled hypocrite. I have a lot of view, and many are not compatible with the other.

    I’m left leaning, but hate this who new(ish) social justice movement, it seems is thought to kids from jnr school all the way through to uni. That will end up killing free speech all together.

    They are taught not to offend anyone, but by definition they don’t learnt how to handle being offend, so they take any idea they don’t like as an attack of their freedom to not be offended. It boils my blood. In the US now tutor’s with out tenure, are terrified to say the wrong thing, so now there is no expanding of the minds, talking about bad things. Bad sinarios are great at opening your mind. University has always been the place for these big ideas. No more.

    If you have a sense of humour, you’ll rarely get offended. Everything can be funny.

    My daily rant has now come to an end. Carry on.

    So I’m a lefty that gets offended by lefties!

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    #22859

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,481

    The biggest attraction that many find wrt Corbyn is that he does not lie or dissemble. (if he does he hasn’t been caught out as yet). In contrast most other politicians lie/dissemble with every other breath.

    May even puts her dissembling in print:

    “Freedom of movement as it stands will come to an end . . .”

    It will be interesting to see how she squares that with an open Irish border.

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    #22861

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 213

    The Irish border isn’t a problem.    Only British and Irish nationals will be allowed to move freely across the imaginary non-existent Eire/N.I. border.  All other citizens will know they are not allowed to cross that imaginary border non-existent border and will be good boys and girls and not cross it, unless they want to.   See its easy.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #22869

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,277

    I used to be part of an organisation whose members were allowed to challenge and often fire at certain people crossing that imaginary border, especially during hours of darkness.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #22872

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 213

    Well talking of fire fights, David Davis, opened fire on May tonight and resigned.    I think his junior Steve Baker has also done so but news channels not reporting it yet.    Who next?    One thing is for sure if Bojo concludes HMS May is holed below the waterline he’ll be out too soon.  Because he’s not the kind of guy to go down with the ship.   Tomorrow will be a damn interesting day me thinks.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #22874

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 213

    Full David Davis resignation letter here.    He takes almost a whole page to say in effect that he sees May’s deal as making us a vassal state.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #22878

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,977

    I’m surprised anyone is left. People seems to be fleeing on a weekly basis. May be monthly, but it’s often.

    As the end comes, you’ll see all the rats escaping the good ship HMS UK. They are just terrified to have their name for the whole of history connected to a terrible bill, so dont even want to try and fix it. As any fix will never be perfect.

    You broke it you fix it. Toffs probably never have had to learn that lesson.

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    #22882

    Dave Rice
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    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 1,584

    Hard to see how Gove can go with what he said yesterday on Marr but I’ll bet he’s working on the weasel words even now. Bojo won’t be long, he can’t let Davis get ahead in the race to be leader. I suspect that’s what a lot of this is about. Principles? in an MP? If it was principles he’d have gone at Chequers. Nah, sign up see how it goes then make your mind up.

    Clearly this lot having caused the mess can’t fix it. Time for a general election whilst there’s time left, too many contrasting sides are able to hold us to ransom. However I feel it will probably just end up like the last one.

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    #22883

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,481

    We will soon be in the period when the Parliamentary inbreds go on their hols to their tax havens, so May needs to do something quickly. A second referendum in September could keep them all fully occupied over their hols and at least give the country a chance to reflect on this bleeding mess.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Ed P.
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    #22885

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 1,584

    The problem is it isn’t, and it never was, a simple Yes or No. There are so many ways to “leave” that all factions can, and do, claim that their version is what was voted for.

    One thing is for sure, if it happened again the tactics of last time on both sides wouldn’t work. They’ve been seen through. What is now clearer is just how joined at the hip we are.

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    #22886

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,481

    Make it a three way referendum.

    a) Full Brexit and  the hell with the Irish border/British Manufacturing

    b) CETA +/-

    c) Reject Brexit

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    #22887

    dwynnehugh
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    @dwynnehugh
    Forumite Points: 572

    I am heartily sick and tired of the remain / get out factions – the electorate voted for out, personally I voted to remain on the basis that it is now more up to the young people in the UK than the older generation. My heart wanted out!!

    TBH if France and Italy allowed a free vote as we had, both countries would also leave, but France will not allow such a vote on the basis they know what the result would be.

    I listen to all those who have opinions on this matter and all the negotiations involved – how we would do it, we would insist on this etc. etc  et al. Corbyn is a prime example – it is so very easy to have all the cures in opposition knowing full well that you will not be called into the hot seat!!

    May inherited a poisoned chalice – yes she sought the leadership and got it – but nonetheless a poisoned one – Cameron made an error – he thought the electorate would vote remain – they did not and he left – akin to the captain leaving the sinking ship first.  I am sick and tired of hearing the ‘remainers’ belly ache that the result was close – had it been a general election – would those who ‘lost’ be complaining then – I suspect not!  The benefits / foolhardiness of first past the post elections. I am not a lover of May by any stretch of the imagination but faced with Brexit and her rebellious cabinet I do have a lot of sympathy for her – I may be the only one I would add!

    I should also add that as the UK is the first country to ever leave the EU, then all sides are breaking new grounds at this time – if anyone else goes then I’m fairly certain there will be some ‘previous experience of such matters’ to refer to.

    And just to cap it all – bl**dy football and tennis on the TV!!!!!!!

    Rant over!!

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by dwynnehugh.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by dwynnehugh.

    The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

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    #22894

    Wheels-Of-Fire
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    @grahamdearsley
    Forumite Points: 1,009

    I see we now have a place for this stuff. Perhaps it will stay off the tech forums in future ?

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    #22896

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,481

    The problem is the Good Friday agreement and breaking up the UK. One reason I voted remain.

    It seems to be an intractable problem to have both an open Irish border without adhering to EU regulations and at the same time restricting the flow of non-Irish EU citizens. Both are an invitation to smugglers (both ways for goods) and people seeking to slip into the UK (or EU).

    It is a logical impossibility, but what politician ever looks at things logically!

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    #22909

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,277

    BoJo gone now, by all signs. No one knows where he is, which is usually his problem too. 😏🙄  This mess may lead to a General Election. How on earth can the PM remain in office after all this? Reminiscent of the way Maggie was forced out.

    A GE during Brexit negotiations, won’t that be fun! What a totally stupid, incompetent, ineffective bunch we have supposedly governing us. The UK has become a laughing stock to the rest of the world.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #22919

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,977

    These politicians need to sort their shit out. Every time of them makes a decision my holiday get that much more expensive!

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    #22922

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 213

    With hindsight perhaps what May should have done when taking office was to say, “OK you want Brexit that’s decided but what type of Brexit do you want? I will research all practical options and then present them to you (i.e. by referendum) to pick.”

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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