Brexit now = CETA +/-?

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This topic contains 1,739 replies, has 22 voices, and was last updated by Ed P 2 weeks, 6 days ago.

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  • #22765

    Ed P
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    @edps

    I must confess to being totally uncertain why the UK has been pratting about for the last 12 months. By all accounts when ‘submarine’ May at last emerged all she did was to unveil a slight modification of the Canadian deal(CETA) with the EU.

    The +/- comes about as there will still be free movement of EU citizens across the borderless Ulster/Eire border, albeit with no rights of abode, but that never troubles the people smugglers. There is also uncertainty over our biggest export earner – the Financial Sector. The EU court will arbitrate all trade deals and the Court of Human Misrights will remain unchanged. (This was never part of Brexit and cannot be untangled from the Northern Ireland Friday Agreement).

    It strikes me that the last six months has been all about internal rifts in the Conservative Party and banging blimp heads together.

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  • #30654

    Wheels-Of-Fire
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    @grahamdearsley
    Forumite Points: 1,663

    You may have been just a teeny bit selective with your quotes there Ed. The link is worth a read just to put things into context. The manifesto actually promises nothing other than to reject a hard Brexit. Oh and to do it in an environmentally way 😂

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    #30656

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 3,765

    Imo not at all selective, but the cold print of their manifesto reveals the lie that 85% voted against BRINO.

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    #30657

    Wheels-Of-Fire
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    @grahamdearsley
    Forumite Points: 1,663

    That last bit was meant to read.

    The manifesto is so full of if’s, but’s and maybe’s that it actually promises nothing other than to reject a hard Brexit. Oh and to do it in an enviromentally friendly way 😂

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    #30658

    Wheels-Of-Fire
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    @grahamdearsley
    Forumite Points: 1,663

    <p style=”text-align: left;”>I can’t really see that the Labour manifesto is in favour of leaving the EU ( other than the bit where it promises to respect the result of the referendum ) so I can’t really see that a vote for Labour was a vote for leave. On the other hand I cant really see if it is in favour of remaining either.</p>

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    #30661

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 900

    Where did you obtain your facts? I cannot get even close to your quoted 85% figure. It must be another load of lies from Brexit HQ. This was the Labour manifesto in 2017. It’s attitude to a Hard Brexit is very clear: ““Labour recognises that leaving the EU with ‘no deal’ is the worst possible deal for Britain and that it would do damage to our economy and trade. We will reject ‘no deal’ as a viable option and if needs be negotiate transitional arrangements to avoid a ‘cliff-edge’ for the UK economy.“” “Labour is making a priority of retaining arrangements close to the status quo with the Single Market and Customs Union.”

    What I said was 85% of voters voted for a party saying we would leave the CU & SM and that is factually 100% correct.   Go check what I said if you disagree.  I assume from your last sentence that you do agree with that premise.   Plainly ‘close to’ is not the same as remaining in, is it?

    The Labour Party Manifesto talked merely of retaining the ‘benefits of’ both the Cu and SM which frankly is no different from what the Leave lobby had said.

    However, elsewhere in the Manifesto is irrefutable evidence that Labour were committing to leaving the CU and SM.  The Manifesto includes this:

    ‘Labour will champion the export interests of SMEs, ensuring all new trade agreements include a commitment to support their market access needs.’

    We, the UK could not commit to any trade agreements ourselves if we were still in the CU.   Equally there is no way we could unilaterally ‘ensure’ that EU trade agreements included anything, let alone a commitment for our SMEs.   Quite plainly Labour was talking of setting up trade agreements itself, which can only mean we would not be in the CU.

    Now let’s consider the SM.   The SM requires freedom of movement and identical EU citizens’ rights no matter the state they reside in.   However, the Labour Manifesto, included:

    ‘A Labour government will immediately guarantee existing rights for all EU nationals living in Britain and secure reciprocal rights for UK citizens who have chosen to make their lives in EU countries.’

    Plainly Labour were saying we would not be in the SM after Brexit because if we would remain in it then there would be no need for this sentence or commitment.    Within the SM such would be automatic, no need to ‘secure’ anything.    So plainly Labour were talking of being out of the SM.

    So there you have it.   Both Labour and Tory were saying we would be out of the CU and SM – and – 85% of those who voted in the 2017 GE voted for those parties.

    BTW way I hope you will agree now that what I said was not ‘a load of lies’.   I know all of the above because I’ve read the Labour 2017 Manifesto several times.  As with all of what Corbyn has said re Brexit its a load of double speak meant to confuse and mislead and plainly he managed it with you in that Manifesto.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #30662

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 900

    Following on from the above and to show Corbyn for his real self  –

    It wasn’t just in 2009 during the Irish Referendums that he was slagging off the EU.   As recently as 2010 he was calling ferociously for the EU to be defeated.   Have a listen for yourself.   The video is here.  So you can listen to him saying;

    “They, the world’s bankers, International Monetary Fund, European Union, they are utterly united in what they want.  Utterly united in deflation, suppressing the economy, and creating unemployment. Utterly united in that.”

    “We will not be silenced by these people. We will win through. We will defeat them”

    I guess he should have added – “but I could be silenced if I thought it might get me a stint at No.10″.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #30663

    dwynnehugh
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    @dwynnehugh
    Forumite Points: 964

    Sorry as I am to post again on this topic (OK I know that I don’t HAVE to!!) but there are many here who are far more knowledgeable than I on the topic BUT for all of the posts posted here, can anyone say that it has made or will make an iota of difference to the end game?

    The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

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    #30667

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 3,765

    Actually yes, it will make a (very slight) difference. Now is the age of ‘Big Data’ and web scrapers running through sites, social media etc and doing things such as counting the number of times that ‘Brexit lies’ or ‘Brexit Dissemblers’ occurs. As election day or second referendum day draws closer this helps modify how political parties set out their policy. Surely you must have noticed the way that May has moved her policies to become slightly more in tune with the feelings of the general public. Individual MPs are also influenced by the ‘pink paper’ summaries of voter trends they receive. For example I am sure that the bulk of Conservative MPs hate being tarred with the brush of ‘lazy inept Greylings!’.

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    #30671

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 3,765

    Plainly ‘close to’ is not the same as remaining in, is it?

    No but it is one hell of a lot more accurate than saying that those votes should be counted as ‘leave’!

    Perhaps I should now stop tarring this Government as a bunch of inept Greylings. Even the Daily Express cannot gloss over the fact that the Department of Transport is being sued over the secretive way Greyling awarded the contract to the mysterious Seaborne freight Company. I’m afraid May cannot protect her friend very much longer – he has to go.

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    #30675

    dwynnehugh
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    @dwynnehugh
    Forumite Points: 964

    ” … As election day or second referendum day draws closer this helps modify how political parties set out their policy…..”

    Policies are meaningless, how often in general elections do we hear (irrespective of your political colours) parties offering what everyone wants to hear, then once in government such promises disappear quicker than snow on the equator?

    The ambition / intention of any politician / political party is to allow you (the electorate) to get what they want!!

    The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

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    #30684

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 900

    Plainly ‘close to’ is not the same as remaining in, is it?

    No but it is one hell of a lot more accurate than saying that those votes should be counted as ‘leave’! Perhaps I should now stop tarring this Government as a bunch of inept Greylings. Even the Daily Express cannot gloss over the fact that the Department of Transport is being sued over the secretive way Greyling awarded the contract to the mysterious Seaborne freight Company. I’m afraid May cannot protect her friend very much longer – he has to go.

    Ed, as I stressed in my post and proved by reference to their Manifesto Labour stood on a Leave the CU and SM platform.    It is true they said that they would strive to keep the ‘benefits of’ such, but that was what the Brexit camp’s stated objective was also.    You find it difficult, do you not, to accept the reality that 85% of the electorate voted in the 2017 GE for parties that were declaring they would leave the CU & SM, don’t you, even though its a fact.

    Let me state one thing clearly – I am not demanding a No Deal Brexit; unlike some.   I am willing to compromise.  May’s WA either with no backstop or a time limited backstop I believe is the best compromise for all.    Yet the EU, are in demanding a fixed backstop, something that is unacceptable to Parliament, forcing a No Deal which quite clearly has no backstop.   Aren’t the EU shooting themselves in the foot and gambling with Eire’s prosperity in that No Deal will slaughter entirely the Irish economy.    To coin a phrase, “Surely a softer backstop is better than No backstop at all.”    That’s the message the PM should take to the EU next week.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #30687

    Wheels-Of-Fire
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    @grahamdearsley
    Forumite Points: 1,663

    Web crawlers are definitely onto this discussion. The ad’s that Google sends me have altered drastically since I started on here. They used to have me down as a leftie ( I assume because I have lived a lot in Brent) and send me ad’s for the Guardian and quotes from the independent. Now they send me ad’s for the Times and quotes from the telegraph. I am also now getting direct mail from the Conservative party and Brittan First ( dont’t try unsubscribing from them, they just send you more. Mark as junk and leave it at that) although I have never even searched for either party directly. I also could swear that some points raised in the commons arise exactly one day after they appear on here !

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    #30689

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 900

    A very interesting piece here from George Soros.

    He states unequivocally that Germany is the Dominant state in the EU.   He accepts that the political battles are no longer left v right but pro v anti EU.   He accepts that the EU could go the way of the old Soviet Bloc and collapse as that did in 1991.

    What struck me most is that he clearly agrees with what many of us who are anti-EU have been saying.   That being that the current EU hierarchy are effectively fanatics.    Soros writes;

    ‘It is difficult to see how the pro-European parties can emerge victorious from the election in May unless they put Europe’s interests ahead of their own. One can still make a case for preserving the EU in order radically to reinvent it. But that would require a change of heart in the EU. The current leadership is reminiscent of the politburo when the Soviet Union collapsed – continuing to issue ukazes as if they were still relevant.’

    For clarity, the word ukaze has entered the English language with the meaning of “any proclamation or decree; an order or regulation of a final or arbitrary nature”.    For those unfamiliar with UK law; the UK Gov. and public authorities are not permitted to make arbitrary decisions, such are held to be unlawful.   So it is clear that as a member of the EU we are vulnerable to arbitrary decisions and lose the protection that we have under UK law from arbitrary rule.

    Perhaps if Soros can admit all of such then Remainers here will also accept that Brexiteers are not talking nonsense and have many valid arguments.    Let’s hope the fanatics currently in EU power realise that by insisting on a fixed and biased backstop they are working contrary to the EU’s best interests in that a No Deal will place such financial and political burdens on the EU, especially Germany, that could be catastrophic.   Having to financially bail out Eire in the case of No Deal could not inconceivably be the straw that politically and financially breaks to EU back.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #30697

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 2,389

    This is all opinion, not fact. Nothing wrong with that but it’s all could and if and not will. If all you seek out and consume are these viewpoints then you will start to believe them as truth, perhaps because you so want them to be true?

    No-one has said Brexiteers haven’t any valid viewpoints, it’s all part of you telling us what we think again. No-one here has said there aren’t problems with the EU and that’s not the first or even second time I’ve had to point that out.

    However what we believe is that we are better off in the EU and you think we’re better off outside. It’s when the solutions to your arguments clearly make no sense or have unmentioned negative consequences that things kick off. Also when facts are deliberately mangled or misappropriated or even just plain ignored.  It’s why I’m not entering into such discussions, there is no point. You seem determined to leave whatever the cost, so any negatives don’t matter.

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    #30701

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 3,765

    Soros actually started all the immigrant mess in the EU. He formulated a deliberate plan to flood the EU with Middle East migrants. One link of many possible ones.

    As a result I would not believe a word the man says – he has a CIA destabilising agenda.

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    #30704

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 2,652

    Soros is one of the pupet masters of the world. Also had no remorse of helping naxis take belongings of fellow Jews. With zero guilt and he says its funny as he learnt alot about business and markets form his time as a nazi collaborator. All with a big smile.

    Although his words can bring down nations. Don’t piss him off.

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    #30709

    The VFM Addict
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    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 900

    Soros actually started all the immigrant mess in the EU. He formulated a deliberate plan to flood the EU with Middle East migrants. One link of many possible ones. As a result I would not believe a word the man says – he has a CIA destabilising agenda.

    Had to chuckle a bit re the link you posted.   Had I posted a Breitbart link I do not doubt I would have been jumped all over.    Although a Brexiteer, even I usually take Breitbart stories with a pinch of salt or at the very least allow for heavy editorial bias.     That said now specifically to Soros.

    I am aware of Soros’s background and activities.   Its because of such his recent articles are of considerable import.   Let me explain.

    Soros is hugely in favour of WIDE OPEN Borders.   He wants the Freedom of Movement that the EU brings and the migrant inflow on the scale Merkel has accepted for Germany to continue.    The very last thing Soros wants is countries returning towards traditional nation states and restricting migrant inflow or leaving Schengen.  I assume you agree with that.   Now lets consider what that means.

    His recent words, far from bolstering the EU’s strength do the exact reverse and give eurosceptics across the entire EU even more ammunition by holding that the EU hierarchy are ideologically obsessed out of self interest and often rule arbitrarily.    It follows from all of such that his words can only possibly be meant by him to wake up the pro-EU community and, in the simplest of forms, SHOUT at it to sort things out PDQ or the EU is going to go the way of the Soviet Union.

    In essence he is seeing what is happening across the EU with eurosceptism growing very rapidly and that growth being supported by and spurred on by the young (only the UK have a heavily pro-EU youth).    Soros sees that MASSIVE change is needed in the EU pretty much immediately or the writing is on the wall.    He seeks to get that  message out to those who want the EU to survive.    However, if you read his recent article, one can discern that he is not entirely certain that the EU will change.   Perhaps that’s why he feels the need to shout the warning so very loudly.

    It is not just me that interprets the Soros article in such fashion.  The Independent read Soros exactly as I do.    So do The Guardian.    Both sources that are very pro-EU I think you’ll agree.

    If you, Ed and Duke seek to read Soros differently from The Independent, The Guardian and me, as you appear to desire to do, then that is your prerogative; and I would follow Voltaire’s rule regarding that if you chose to.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #30710

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 2,652

    I actually could be in agreement with you there. Markets move when soros says jump. He is one of the most powerful people on the planet.

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    #30712

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 3,483

    I agree with Dwynne here:

    …BUT for all of the posts posted here, can anyone say that it has made or will make an iota of difference to the end game?

    And here:

    Policies are meaningless, how often in general elections do we hear (irrespective of your political colours) parties offering what everyone wants to hear, then once in government such promises disappear quicker than snow on the equator?

    The ambition / intention of any politician / political party is to allow you (the electorate) to get what they want!!

    It is irrelevant that agencies are picking up keywords and noting the contents of our rabbiting here. The whole contentious issue of Brexit and the failed democratic process of the referendum, remains corrupted by lies to the population by the politicians and others, from both sides of the argument. We were supposed to trust the words of these people. Who thinks that any politician can be trusted now, even those who may be trustworthy and may speak honestly, from belief based upon intelligent consideration? British politics and British MP’s are now tarnished and discredited by the events since Cameron first gave his intent to have a referendum. Politics and democracy is about to undergo changes within the next two years. Whether those changes are beneficial to the people, only time will tell. We need a genuine People’s Party, with an honest and strong leadership and I do not mean Labour. The fact that a few rabid ultra-Protestant Ulster politicos can disrupt and affect the workings of the UK Parliament, should tell us all we need to know.

     

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #30715

    dwynnehugh
    Participant
    @dwynnehugh
    Forumite Points: 964

    The word ‘politican’ and ‘truth’ are never found in the same sentence.

    Just to go back to the Brexit debate – might it not have been better if May had gone in with a coalition of all parties at the outset as this is something what will affect the UK for decades to come. At least then we could blame the whole lot of the shysters as opposed to factions in each party!

    The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

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