Flying Turkey Redux

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This topic contains 40 replies, has 8 voices, and was last updated by Ed P 2 weeks, 6 days ago.

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  • #2206

    Ed P
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    @edps

    It just keeps getting worse – it isn’t surprising that the UK is going to take all their Turkeys and hide them on the great white elephant where only podgy females and males will be allowed to fly it!  It also isn’t surprising that Trump wants a friendly relationship with the Russians if this is an indicator of US defense technology!

    link

    Some headlines:

    The operational suitability of all variants continues to be less than desired by the Services.

    Three independent assessments conducted during the past 6 months rate the F-35 as red or unacceptable

    In an effort to stay on schedule, JPO plans to reduce or truncate planned developmental testing (DT) in an effort to minimize delays and close out SDD as soon as  possible. However, even with this risky, schedule-driven approach, multiple problems and delays make it clear that
    the program will not be able to start IOT&E with full combat  capability until late CY18 or early CY19, at the soonest.

    The Services have designated 276 deficiencies in combat performance as “critical to correct” in Block 3F, but less than half of the critical deficiencies were addressed with attempted corrections in 3FR6.

    Deficiencies continue to be discovered at a rate of about  20 per month, and many more will undoubtedly be discovered during IOT&E.

    Flight sciences testing continues to be a source of significant  discovery,

    Fatigue and migration of the attachment bushing in the  joint between the vertical tail and the aircraft structure are  occurring much earlier than planned

    Overheating of the horizontal tail continued to cause  damage, as was experienced on BF-3, one of the  F-35B flight sciences test aircraft, while accelerating in  afterburner to Mach 1.5 for a loads test point.

    Post-flight inspections revealed de-bonding due to heat damage on the trailing edge of the horizontal tail surface and on the horizontal tail rear spar. (i.e. the Turkey is in danger of shedding its tail feathers!)

    Early testing of the air-to-ground andair-to-air symbology have led to discovery of deficiencies in the gunsight and strafing symbology displayed in the pilot’s  helmet.

    Besides the ongoing delays with software and gun  modifications, both DT and OT pilots have reported  concerns from preliminary test flights that the air-to-ground gun strafing symbology, displayed in the helmet, is currently operationally unusable and potentially unsafe

    These modifications to the pilot escape system were  needed after testing in CY15 showed that the risk of serious injury or death is greater for lighter-weight pilots.  Because of the risk, the Services decided to restrict pilots weighing less than 136 pounds from flying the F-35.

    • This topic was modified 1 year, 8 months ago by Ed P.
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  • #13178

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 1,804

    I agree with Ed on this one: the Rafale is a very good aircraft and would be tailor-made for a Rolls Royce engine. BAE to build it under licence and tell the Yanks to have the Flying Turkey at Thanksgiving. Dump the Trident and try to move the white elaphant carriers to some banana republic.

    The government will of course not do that: bowing to US pressure is now the default option.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #13704

    Ed P
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    @edps
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    At last some signs of sense from the MOD – maybe we can reduce our commitment to this load of rubbish. El Reg link

    Maybe we have Brexit to thank for this, but it is more likely due to our acknowledging that we are just a sixth-rate power.

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    #13716

    The Duke
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    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,559

    Sixth would be stretching the truth.

    It is about time we realise our place in the world. Unless we are gonna go all out and build the best navel and land force, or at least one to match, which we don’t have the cash or manpower to do.

    We should either join an EU army, a cheap way to become the number one, or simply opt out of sticking our noses where they don’t belong.

    If we stopped meddling, people may stop hating us.

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    #13727

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
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    That’s commonsense Steve, this government will not listen. There are still too many oldphart Tories (not necessarily old in years) who think we still have an Empire. Any PM who appoints Boris Johnson as Foreign Minister, is obviously looking for a confrontation with someone

    Forget upgrading Trident: Mutually Assured Destruction is just that: destruction. I would rather not have my country participate in the End Of The World, just in case I am mistaken and there actually is a Deity and an Afterlife. Imagine 60-odd million burnt Brits all  queueing behind the charred Yanks, Russians and Chinese in front Old Nick and all bleating, “Honest Boss, it weren’t us, it were our politicians!”

    I say we should bite the bullet, stuff the Yanks, cancel the Turkey and buy a navalised Rafale, maybe to build under licence with a suitable Rolls Royce engine and BAE electronics. Use the money saved to build and train a force of well armed but smaller naval craft which will patrol our own borders. That will also allow us to keep EU and other fishing fleets away from our newly-independent waters.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #13738

    The Duke
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    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,559

    I’ve said for years, why can’t we just pretend we have trident, or if we are making crap up something better.

    The best, most destructive, invisible WMDs, the world has ever seen, as Trump would say. Lol

    A smaller highly trained force, that could just look after us. I’d still do nation service to. One it keeps unemployment lower with youth.  two,  it would mean we had a nation of 20m plus  trained personal   (eventually), that we could call on. Three, they could be used as a work force to build bunkers, etc around the country. (my Jr school had a bunker especially for the Russians). Four, it’s just bloody good for a kid, it teaches some good lessons, even if you don’t get it at the time.

    I’d have anyone that leave school at 16 do 6 years. Collage leavers (18), do 4 years. And if you go uni I’d want them to do 2 years Starting before the age of 30. If you attend uni but don’t graduate, you’d do 4 years, starting before your 30th. If would put the draft dodgers off, while also insentavising those who want to pass a wee bit.

    And I’d give the cream the option to become full time at the end if their national service.

    Collage and uni grads would be put to work doing their choice qualifications where possible, this would give them the all important  experience that all employers demand today.

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    #13745

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    Singapore has an NS similar to your suggestion. However, graduates hate it as they see NS getting in the way of them earning big bucks. Possibly enforced reserve training for graduates might be more appropriate and better accepted by both graduates and employers (they do lose some of the creativity as a result of NS conformity).

    I used to much prefer employing Singaporean female graduates as they were both more creative and more inclined to willingly give their opinions. (I hate ‘yes men’.)

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    #13759

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 1,804

    The Bündesrepublik ended NS in 2011, and are now considering reintroducing it:     http://tinyurl.com/y9t5vzbw

    In the 60’s and 70’s, when I served in BAOR, there was full conscription for I believe 18 months. Conscientious Objectors could serve their time in the Fire, Police (by selection only) ambulance/paramedics, or as Hospital Orderlies. I was on Exercises with some of the Bündeswehr Wehrpflicht (conscription) lads. TBH, I would have preferred to have gone to war alongside them, than most of the regular American Army I met. At the time, the FRG (West Germany) could put 1.5 million conscripts and Reservists into the field. Rations for the ‘cannon fodder’ was a thick plastic bag full of Würst und Brot (sausage & bread) with a canteen of water. Those young lads thought at that time, as did we all, that the Warsaw Pact nations might come screaming at us in millions at any time. The ones I met were determined to defend their country against the people their parents and grandparents had told them about. the regular Bündeswehr troops were as good then as anything in NATO, and better than most. They hated their parade uniforms, which had been designed to make them look as “un-Warlike” as possible. “Scheisse hosen, scheisse Blusen, scheisse jacke” in the words of one guy I knew.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #17998

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    I should perhaps have said the very expensive (blank chequebook) Flying Turkey. It would seem that once again the MOD have been taken for a ride by the Yanks and we are going to have to pay yet another third of a billion pounds just to get the Flying Turkey into a state where it might possibly be able to both fly and fight! I’ll bet that isn’t the last money call that is made for this heap of ‘flying’ scrap.

    Thanks again to ElReg for highlighting facts that the MOD and Yanks would rather were buried in an obscure Parliamentary response. link

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    #19622

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    Block 3 testing for the Turkey has finished, but the US has suspended delivery which will mean further delays to the British version of the Turkey. We should however get deliveries before it is completely obsolete. Assuming that is, that the Block 4 testing goes better than that for Block 3, however as the above link hints the auguries do not look great.

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    #20720

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    In a very schadenfreude way it is good to learn that the Eurofighter has just earned the sobriquet of Flying Turkey II. This time it is neither the Yanks or our MOD that are to blame. In this case it is the German MOD who have managed to cripple their Eurofighter arm through misjudged political moves and ill-judged cost savings. Now where have I heard THAT story before?🙃

    link

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    #21468

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    I just hope that HMS White Efflump has a really BIG maintenance store. Apparently you can only land the F35B ten times before the tyres are completely nadgered. link.

    It has to be a really big store as the lead time for many parts is measured in years! link

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    #21469

    The Duke
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    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,559

    That’s seems very optimistic, to think they will even get to take off ten times.

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    #21592

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    You could be right Steve. If anyone is wondering why we have not been subject to a propaganda blitz about the first delivery of the  Lightning Turkey, you did not take into account the fact that it can only fly in perfect weather! link. It sort of reminds me of the ‘wrong sort of leaves on the line’ excuse trotted out by the Railways. The linked article did not explain why the Turkey could not have drop tanks – but perhaps the wings cannot carry any load!

    Obviously the MOD did not bother to include a ‘fit for purpose’ clause in the UK’s purchase agreement.

    • This reply was modified 3 months, 2 weeks ago by Ed P.
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    #21624

    The Duke
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    @sgb101
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    In the 90s, we had the best the rifle, however only in the right conditions. Snow or sand was a no no, as was mud. So as long as your going door to door it’s was fine. Or maybe a lab.

    Soldiers would have nightmares of stoppages. I’ve seen and done; been in the middle of an ‘incident’, and got stoppages so stubborn to clear it you have to roll on your back, make it (half) safe (remove mag) then have to hold the rifle by the barrel and use your heal to force the clocking handle back to its resting position, forcing the jammed round into the its chamber. This can take alot of kicks/stomps.

    This is super dangerous for many reasons. Not just cos you could shoot yourself very easily doing this, also disrupts the fire maneuver flow, and of course no soldier want to me stationary for up to 60 seconds..

    To imagine it, think about seeing someone lying on their back, fighting with a broom stick, wile being shot at. This wasn’t uncommon at all, in mud and the desert.

    In the snow and mud, it would build up behind the trigger so you couldn’t pull it. So your arse would fall out, that your trigger refused to pull.

    Also one I’ve only heard off, is the magazine housing lock is on the left side of the weppon, the side that goes against the body, there was many reports of people accidentally ejecting their mags without noticing.

    There was many more issues too. But the weapon is very good, any fool could hit a person at 4-600 meters with it. When it fired! Very little recoil and light.

    It took the mod about 10 years to get all the bugs fixed, on top of the 10 plus year the sa80 was in development . that’s on something as simple as a rifle.

    We go the Germans to fix it in the end.

    So yeah, I don’t hold much hope for them fixing ships and jets. And the more complex these things become, I have to think the less their life span will be. In 15 years time, will they just be scrapped, instead of retro fitted when it’s time to upgrade? It hot like the old days when they could just bolt on an updated radar for instance.

    Even back in the 80s, they had issues with retro fitting. In the fualklands half the sea dart (iirc) missile defence unit just dint work. The software kept saying no.

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    #21633

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 1,804

    The old SLR was made to work in all conditions, with the right oil (or none, in the desert *) and regular cleaning to remove carbon build up. It was heavy old barsteward, but we loved it and a 7.62 mm round would travel a total of 9 miles. I could hit most stuff at 750 yards accurately with it, but with the 7.62 barreled L42 A1 (old Lee Enfield) I could go over 1,000. Wish my eyesight was half as good now!

    * we learned that the oil clogged it and scored the barrel/created stoppages, with too much heat. I also made a bag to keep mine sand-free, out of officer’s split golf club bags!

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #21636

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 1,282

    Clearly there is something screwed up in the procurement methodology. Who in hell’s name decided on a specification against which these devices fail to get tested? In the most basic way, if a widget is needed to work in mud, slime, heat, cold, wet, dry or whatever, those parameters need to be specified into the original contract. Then they can be made explicit test standards, a failure to meet the standard means a failure to sell the widget. In the case of a rifle, being able to fire straight in all of the above cases would appear to be a prime, testable need that must be verified before acceptance.

    I suspect that the real issues is not that the specification writers are not up to their job, but that the specifications are drawn up not by those with any interests in the usefulness of the widget, but by those interested in both financial and political objectives of making money and keeping friends sweet.

    Revolutionary new crap is still crap if it ends up less usable than the clapped crap that went before.

    Incidentally I see the Germans also have an in service device availability, it is not just us.

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    #21638

    The Duke
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    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,559

    Bob, you of been able to 800m with the SA80, with ease. It was a very accurate, when it went off! Also you could carry more rounds, as the 5.56 is much lighter and less bulky.

    The SLW which was an SA80 with a longer barrel, average Joe could hit a small grouping at 600m a good shot a grouping at 800m

    Each 8 section would carry 6 rifle men, 1 LSW, and 1 GPMG. One of the rifle men would carry a LAW94  (that is probably upgraded now).

    Richard, it was a mixture of design  flaws, and poor engineering. They spent years messing about with it. Officially there is only a Mk1& 2, but there was lots of iterations.

    Even the current one, post H&K fix, has been tweaked again. It’s been a while since I looked into this, I return to it every now and then. But there is a few youtube channels that focus on weapons, and he was pointing out slight diffences between even the new models.

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    #21639

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    Pity Bruce isn’t on the site, he could hint at a lot of reasons the MOD is so bad, not least that they got rid of anyone with the slightest technical background/competence or practical experience and staffed up with chinless wonders who were ‘well-connected’ yes men.  The solution would be to connect the nether ends of the  well-connected with size 11 steel toe-capped boots!

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    #21653

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 1,804

    Steve’ I once carried out a strike with the L42A1 on a Middle Eastern terrorist leader at a distance in clear air later calculated at 1,472 yards. (I was not metricated then) which was not bad, as my spotter and I estimated 1,375. Aiming for body centre at that distance to be ‘safe’ but fall of shot was a little over and the strike looked just above the sternum. Enough to get it done. An RHA battery of “longer-range snipers” covered our withdrawal, we just had to make sure this guy was history before his camp was trashed, might have been a few Russian ‘advisors‘ in there as well, never found out. Never go without Arty cover! Taken back by AAC Scout heli, which I was later in the week working on. Variety was good, I lived for Adrenalin then. Who expected an AAC Tech to be a sniper? It made me smile in the NAAFI Bar to hear some of the “Warry” ones boasting about stuff. To quote some infantrymen, you would think there could not be many of the enemy left in the desert. Not all useless: the RNF were a good mob, great soldiers most Geordies made. 45 Commando were in and out of the Radfan all the time, many with beards as sun protection.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #25356

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 1,730

    If you thought that the ‘Turkey’ saga was over, it looks like you were wrong, the F-35 Joint Program Office is busy papering over the cracks and flaws.

    link

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