Is Labour now "#&cked" as was overheard yesterday during the TIG Launch?
February 19, 2019 at 11:41 am #30895ParticipantThe VFM Addict@thevfmaddict
I’m not sure if the break away TIG 7 spells the death knell as regards Labour’s chances of winning a GE. But for me the re-admission of Derek Hatton to the party, widely publicised today, leaves no doubt in my mind that the extreme left now have total control. This I believe is potentially as damaging for Labour as has been Tommy Robinson’s involvement with UKIP become
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
February 19, 2019 at 11:52 am #30897ParticipantRichard@sawbomanForumite Points: 6,517
I agree that both are an ugly symptom of the polarisation of ideas that can be taken as representing the major thrust of those not in tune with the more extreme arguments. Something along the lines of, If you don’t like all that Jeremy embraces then you must support (so called not his real name) Tommy Robinson. Or equally wrong, If you do not like (so called not his real name) Tommy Robinson, then you must be a friend of Jeremy and his fellow travellers, now including Derek Hatton.
While both are equally wrong the discussion is slewed off the original topic onto a discussion of the weird and obnoxious so goes nowhere, except to generate heat without light.February 19, 2019 at 12:24 pm #30899ParticipantEd P@edpsForumite Points: 15,295
The headline for the Economist this week is ‘The Rise of Millenial Socialism’, so I guess it depends which votes you are trying to garner.
People over 50 are generally set in their political ways, and tend to become more right-wing with age so are not a fertile ground for the Labour Party. The young on the other hand have always questioned society and generally been left leaning. Probably this age is no different from when we were young. However, social media makes it much easier to organise and direct this age group, and increasing the percentage of under 30s who vote Labour could certainly affect election outcomes e.g. Canterbury West.
The militant French Yellow Jackets are a worrying step in the opposite direction, especially for ethnically diverse countries.February 19, 2019 at 12:31 pm #30900
I think what I was trying to highlight was that the readmission of Hatton and the break away of the TIG are symptoms of the same malaise. As much as I disliked Blair personally – and by that I mean both his personal objectives and persona – it is probably true to say that Labour under Blair was the closest we have ever had to a centrist party, which is perhaps why he won three elections. Today, Labour is moving even further to the left of centre than the party was under Michael Foot. I am simply not convinced that the Tories have yet themselves lurched as much to the right as Labour has to the left.
I’m unsure what we can read from the Yellow Vests in France. Be it Left or Right movements the French always reacted violently. Do you not recall (I can’t remember your age) the riots of 1968 across France which were leftist movements.
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.February 19, 2019 at 2:57 pm #30903
Seeing as we already live in a proper socialist country we could do with a proper socialist party. We have the NHS, we have state education, we have social housing, we have welfare payments. To many state provided safety nets to list. Now how about a socialist party that could actually run things ? Heck I would vote for them if they stopped being the home for the lunatic fringe.February 19, 2019 at 3:00 pm #30904
And oh yes. They will be able to run things once we leave the EU ?February 19, 2019 at 5:36 pm #30914
My kids (20 – 27) don’t give a flying fig about some old git from decades ago. They parcel that sort of behaviour in the Jacob Rees Mogg category but in the opposite direction.
They are more worried about the antisemitism but see the Conservatives as being far worse in that general direction. What they think about the way Brexit has been handled is unprintable.
It will take a lot more to get them to vote anything but Labour, Liberal is more likely than Tory.February 19, 2019 at 6:48 pm #30930ParticipantBob Williams@bullstuff2Forumite Points: 12,995
I have said before that I grew up with a Socialist background: granddad a founder member of the Independent Labour Party, big brother an NUM delegate who got sick of the local Labour mob and became a Councillor, eventually Independent Labour. Our dad brought us up to ‘vote for a candidate, not his Party.’ and ‘Always remember that you are better than no one and no one is better than you.’ Dad was an independent thinker and made sure we followed suit. In my life I have voted for all 3 Party candidates at different times, because I checked out the person behind the Rosette and made up my mind based upon a view of their character. I voted for one of Blair’s people in my old Notts village and I still regard him as one of the only two trustworthy politicians I ever met. The other was the late Sir Peter Tapsell, a traditional Tory but unafraid of defying his own Party, even in government.
IMO, Corbyn is someone who undoubtedly carried a Communist Party Card in his youth. He is brother chip to people like Scargill, always trying to fight battles that were long since lost. Should he ever be elected as PM of a Labour government, it will be because of the Youth Vote. When that generation eventually realises that his promises were pie crusts and his lack of leadership competence becomes blindingly obvious, that will be another generation of people who distrust politicians and politics.
The usual Union suspects and radical Left Wing pillocks are mustering behind Corbyn, and the more intelligent, moderate thinkers in his party are either leaving or considering their next moves.
I find myself in agreement with VFM (surprised?):
“…it is probably true to say that Labour under Blair was the closest we have ever had to a centrist party, which is perhaps why he won three elections.”
Absolutely true, and initially he was a very good leader, but as the old saying goes, power corrupts. It all went to his head and it still does, although it now goes to his pocket as well. The Silent Majority of this country does not favour extremist politics of any flavour for long.
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.February 19, 2019 at 8:02 pm #30938ParticipantJayCeeDee@jayceedeeForumite Points: 4,818
With a lot of the Conservative Party on the right wing and Labour’s Momentum on the Left, there is a huge gap in the middle for a “Centrist” party.
I actually held out hopes for New Labour when it got in, and it didn’t do too badly for a few years. When Blair decided it was time to go, they made a pig’s ear of the transition to a new leader and lost a lot of support along the way. Even long time Labour supporters couldn’t stomach Gordon Brown, and then having a “Financial expert” at the helm during the crash, that was the nail in Labour’s coffin.
We’ve had enough of one party in power ( left or right ) supposedly being kept ‘honest’ ( I use the word in its practical form, not its literal meaning ) by an opposition. They have all just spent their time in oppsition bitching about those in power. Confrontational politics of the ilk seen over the last 3 or 4 decades has done nothing for the betterment of this country other than provide grist for the gossip/tabloid mill.
Some people in the media are referencing the TIG group back to Shirley Williams and the SDP of the 80’s. Not one of the current batch have either the b*lls or the integrity she had. She thought she had seen a way out of the country’s problems and a fair percentage of the country agreed with her, but ultimately, apart from forming the starting point for the Lib Dems, it came to nought.
The less said about Derek Hatton the better, likewise Derek ( Red Robbo ) Robinson and Arthur Scargill. Collectively they did more to destroy industry which wrecked uncountable peoples’ lives.February 19, 2019 at 10:45 pm #30939ParticipantTippon@tipponForumite Points: 3,775
Something along the lines of, If you don’t like all that Jeremy embraces then you must support (so called not his real name) Tommy Robinson.
I follow a lot of left leaning people on Twitter these days, including a handful of famous comedians. None of them are scared to air their views on any political character. If they oppose a right leaning character like a Tory, they’ll get a few muppets hurling abuse, but they’ll also get a fair amount of decent debate. If they dare to criticise Corbyn though, they’ll usually get a relatively small amount of either agreement or decent arguments, but mostly they get something along the lines of ‘Oh, you’re a Tory then?’ or ‘Another Blairite warmonger’ or something similarly dismissive.
It’s really depressing :(February 20, 2019 at 1:07 am #30940
Lets get rid of this horrid monster that calls its self the labour party once and for all. It has not represented any workers in decades. Nasty Nasty Marxists since before I was born.February 20, 2019 at 6:48 am #30943
I would love it if there was a left of centre party strong enough to vote for. Unfortunately the two party system we have makes it difficult as Farage and UKIP found out. Being popular means nothing.
As much as I disagree with him and them I always thought it disgusting that such a share of the vote should go unrepresented. Same for the Greens. But we had a referendum on that too so we’re stuck with it.February 20, 2019 at 8:52 am #30945ParticipantJayCeeDee@jayceedeeForumite Points: 4,818
Lets get rid of this horrid monster that calls its self the labour party once and for all. It has not represented any workers in decades. Nasty Nasty Marxists since before I was born.
Don’t lose the baby with the bath water!!
You just need to get rid of the evil within that calls itself Momentum and any future versions of it. Believe it or not, Labour, as was originally envisaged, had the opportunity to do good – and did. Without sounding like a Communist Manifesto, there is a need for a side of Government that can hold the elitist party’s feet to the flames and protect the common man.
That could be Labour, UKIP, LibDem or the Greens but they need to stand in the middle ground, like Tony Blair tried to do ( evil acts excepted ). That’s why it was called New Labour, re-inventing the original – the idea was that it would be fit for purpose for the 21st Century, distancing itself from the extremes mentioned in my previous post that were the late 70’s and 80’s. That’s why I got involved with the Union when I worked at BT – if you want to change something, you should do so from within. If you ban something, there are elements in the British psyche and population to whom that makes it more appealing!!February 20, 2019 at 11:10 am #30949ParticipantRichard@sawbomanForumite Points: 6,517
The hate Britain and all it stands for as well as the EU and all that stands for leader of the present Labour party is hardly likely to stand on any middle ground! As for his cronies one of whom is a so called lawyer trying to support the odious thing that went to Syria and still spouts all her bile about killing innocents in this country because there have been efforts to stop her devil worshipping sect. A view supported by Corbyn’s friend, the equally odious lawyer. He who sleeps in pig muck in the gutter does not warrant friendship! In short, Momentum is the present so called Labour party which lost its roots and failed to find a real role.
The water melons, green on the outside red inside is never going to be anything like a middle ground contender.
The so called Liberals showed their lack of a grip on reality a few years back when they thought that they could continue to spend money that did not exist in a way reminiscent of members of Wilson’s failure government crowd. Remember George Brown’s we can spend our way out of a money shortage!
Any combination of the above should produce a rapid increase in the sales of suicide pills should they get near to power.
Does anyone read what those loons write, or hear anything they say?
While on a rant, I am quite equal opportunity. As for that equally odious Green sometimes owner of failing frock shops; why were laws not brought to bear on him earlier? (I see the US police are now taking an interest.) Oh yes of course, the speaker of the House of Commons did not want his cosy use of NDAs to be discussed, so they are still available to be abused by all with the money and clout to do so.February 20, 2019 at 11:38 am #30950
3 tories gone now to TIG. How many more?February 20, 2019 at 11:54 am #30951
I’d bet no more Tories but lots more Labour.
During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.February 20, 2019 at 12:08 pm #30952
Can’t have that, that means labour are leading 8 – 3. Corbyn will start gloating ??February 20, 2019 at 12:42 pm #30953
I wouldn’t be so complacent. The silent moderates are starting to find their voices. TM’s refusal to meet the moderates in her party are hastening the process.February 20, 2019 at 1:17 pm #30954
Dave I’m certainly not complencent. I have just spent 3 months in hospital in a isolation room, not including my 3 visits to the icu. During that time I have watched, listened and read almost every political broadcast there was. Even LBC at half 3 in the morning.
Many of my Doctors and Nurses were from the EU. One of the Italian surgeons who carried out 3 of my 5 operations hopes that Italy will be next. One of my Spanish nurses has never been a nurse in Spain. All her work following her training has been here. She has made her life here and has no intention of going home, Brexit or not, unless she has to.
On the other hand there are others who are seriously worried and think the UK is making a bad mistake. So no I am not complacent, and I won’t get into my own views here, it would take far to long. I will say that this whole European experiment has right from the start in the 70’s been riddled with lies and deceit and both sides are equally responsible. From the restricted FCO report that was kept secret for 30 years, to the promised referendums, to the mis information of John Major and the infamous bus.February 20, 2019 at 5:19 pm #30978
I wouldn’t be so complacent. The silent moderates are starting to find their voices. TM’s refusal to meet the moderates in her party are hastening the process.
I’m not sure which ‘moderates’ you are talking about. Well perhaps the Labour TIG could be described as such but certainly not the Three Ugly Tory Sisters. By any correct definition they are the ones that are Rebels. All stood on a manifesto that was explicit that we would leave the CU & SM and all have rebelled against that upon which they were elected. All have called for a People’s Vote on the basis that voters didn’t know what they voted for. Well such is surely true re them too given their abandonment of the manifesto they stood on. So why will they not have a People’s Vote regarding such by resigning and triggering a by-election? Its hypocrisy of the highest order to hold one is resigning on principle and then demonstrate that one does not oneself have any principles.
What sickens me most about them is the smoke screen of falsehoods they proffered today as to why they are leaving; i.e. a key one being that local associations are being taken over by extremists. It is the Chairs of most local Con. Assoc.’s who have been Tory members for years who are desiring that the manifesto is stuck to. The Tory membership numbers have not increased and a grand total of zero local associations have initiated deselections – not even Nick Boles local association has.
I note that both Heidi Allen and Anna Soubry have pulled out of interviews on Sky News this afternoon. Hardly surprising given that the lies they told today of a Purple Momentum “subsuming the Conservative Party” have been demonstrated to be such almost instantly.
_______________________________________________________________________________________February 20, 2019 at 5:48 pm #30984
Just to calm myself down re all the hypocrisy I have reminded myself of the typical flight path of all break away new parties (?) in the HoC. It goes like this.
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