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Off with his head!

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This topic contains 237 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by Ed P 12 hours, 52 minutes ago.

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  • #36937

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps

    Supreme Court: Suspending Parliament was unlawful, judges rule.

    Irrespective of Brexit I am extremely glad to see this ruling. Ever since TBLiar took us into an illegal war with the threat of proroguing in the background  I have been very concerned about our system of elected sometimes unelected temporary dictatorship. We needed some checks and balances against a deluded leader, and now we have a precedent.

    The topic header was of course tongue in cheek, what sanction if any there is for misleading the monarch remains to be seen, but the mendacious BoJo would be well advised to avoid Scotland for a while as he has been in contempt of their court for over a week!

Viewing 20 replies - 1 through 20 (of 237 total)
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  • #36939

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,850

    Let’s see if he continues with his threat of doing it again. Somehow I doubt it.

    So Parliament probably back this week, will they vote to suspend for the Conservative conference?

    Will he be flying back for PMQ’s? Looks like he’s been let off.

    One thing he won’t do is resign.

    EDIT just watching him live from NY. I really don’t think he expected this nor how comprehensive. In denial, still trying the people vs parliament (and now the judiciary). If prorogation was nothing to do with Brexit how can this judgement be frustrating it?

    It’s all unravelling in front of him.

    @VFM if he has an ace up his sleeve I’m dying to see what it is. Looks like it’s a joker.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Dave Rice.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Dave Rice.
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    #36946

    The VFM Addict
    Participant
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 1,849

    It seems to me that it plays very well indeed into the People versus the Elite narrative.   Can’t wait to see the next set of Voting Intention polls; they will give all of us a handle on such.    The other parties can run but can’t hide from a GE forever.

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #36948

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,850

    They are neither running nor hiding. Parliament is putting the No Deal nonsense beyond any back handed dealing from a Government that has just shown they are not beyond breaking the law. Then there will be a GE and if Johnson hasn’t got us out it’s good night Conservative Party and probably goodbye Brexit, certainly a hard Brexit.

    I find it amazing that the party of the Establishment is positioning itself as the anti-establishment party. The party of law and order has to be taken to the highest court in the land. The party of fiscal responsibility intends unleashing the biggest fiscally irresponsible act you can imagine. And for what?

    The movement that wants to bring back power to the UK Parliament and Courts is prepared to rubbish both of them to get what it wants and behave like dictators. Backed by people who are out to make a killing out of the trashing of the economy.

    Mendacious doesn’t even begin to describe the current situation.

     

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    #36951

    The VFM Addict
    Participant
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 1,849

    Don’t be silly.  The Supreme Court just gave BoJo the excuse he needed to fight off the Brexit Party.     Errrmmmm…………….they do say Cummings is a brilliant Chess Player.    Was this a sacrificial gambit, I wonder?

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    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #36953

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    I would not dismiss the idea of a Government of National Unity formed to ask the EU for a delay, sort out this Brexit mess and then call a General Election to decide on the outcome. i.e a Corbyn (generally acceptable Brexit) or None as set out today, a Tory who knows what/Hard Brexit, or a LibDem No Brexit.

    I reckon the Mendacious one has mere days to reveal his ‘rabbit’.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by Ed P.
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    #36958

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,850

    I think there is nothing left in his arsenal, this was it.

    Pretend to negotiate, because actual negotiating is too much like hard work, and keep Parliament away from scrutinising what’s (not) going on until it’s too late. The opposition couldn’t come together in any coherent form in time. Threaten Tory Remainers with the sack and the idea they’ll be letting Corbyn in. Slide out on the 31st by default, that’s got rid of BP, then a General Election. Boris the charismatic hero will bring everything back together now the nasty stuff is behind us even if he has to bribe us with £billions. It had to be done, waffle, waffle, now I’ll put it all back together. Blame the EU for all the nastiness.

    Except no-one else was reading the script. He went so far he pissed off even his own side so much they were prepared to sacrifice their careers to stop him. The opposition came together enough to spoil the party. The judiciary were asked their opinion and dared to give it. The only defence was that they weren’t allowed to, well it seems they are.

    What’s left now? It seems all the ERG have left is schoolboy goading to try and get a GE to their timescale in the hope that we slip out whilst everyone’s looking the other way. The game is up, it’s not happening. Nobody is falling for that any more.

    ED, you may well be right about the National Unity thing. Corbyn will have to be asked first but he knows he can’t strong arm his way in, not even with his own side. I could well see him giving way to say Harriet Harman after a week. Get a long article 50 suspension, take your chances on a GE with LibDem and BP hopefully tearing bigger lumps out of the Tories than than you’ll suffer. Make Leave or Remain noises depending on how it’s going with promises the people will decide. Remind everyone they’re voting for Lord Snooty and his pals, the people who shut down the mines etc.

    I could see a Labour / LibDem pact in the event of a hung parliament if Labour said they would campaign for Remain. Just like the BP would insist on a No Deal of the Tories.

    Another 6 months of this I feel but Dominic Cummings has been check mated.

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    #36961

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 5,284

    The mess just gets messier Boris, and you have not a clue how to clean it up. If ever this idiot had any plan of action, it has almost reached Plan Z by now. Thank you very much, Supreme Court, especially for the strength of the rebuke, which I don’t think anyone expected. That was more than a slap on the wrist, it was a hard punch to a monster ego. Another reminder to those who believe that we “lost our sovereignty” that no such loss has occurred at any point during our membership of the EU.

    Her Majesty and her team will have a very jaundiced view of BoJo now. The way it is being presented in some quarters may wake him up to the fact that the Queen has been regarded with huge respect and love as a national treasure by the British public for many decades, whilst Boris may not retain any public respect past the end of this current year. Just two months in power, you offend Parliament, the monarchy and are judged guilty of misusing your position by the highest court in the land. Nice one, BoJo! 😣😡 What’s your next trick?

    As a Republican I find it initially amusing, then frankly, sickening, especially the view from New York of two national leaders, neither of whom are fit for purpose.

    If it’s the Psychic Network why do they need a phone number?

    What’s right is what’s left if you do everything else wrong.

    If women ran the world we wouldn’t have wars, just intense negotiations every 28 days.
    --- Robin Williams

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    #36965

    The VFM Addict
    Participant
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 1,849

    We really must consider Boris Johnson’s action in context.    Until the SC Ruled no-one knew what was and was not unlawful, did they?

    Certainly a High Court bench which had included the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Burnett of Maldon, the Master of the Rolls, Sir Terence Etherton, and the president of the Queen’s bench division, Dame Victoria Sharp had concluded BoJo’s prorogation was not unlawful.   Therefore I can see no basis upon which Boris Johnson could ever be deemed to have known he was acting unlawfully if even those three very senior judges did not even believe that he was.

    I am not defending BoJo simply because I am a Leaver.   I am looking at the facts objectively and as they are and simply cannot condemn any man for not knowing that which even the Lord Chief Justice; the Master of the Rolls and the president of the Queen’s Bench division of the Administrative court did not even know.    I have read the SC judgement in full and note that while the SC hold BoJo’s actions to have been unlawful there is not the slightest suggestion within the judgement that the SC was of the opinion that BoJo would have known he was acting unlawfully.

    Coupled to such is of course that BoJo was aware that John Major had prorogued Parliament for a much longer period for political purposes without legal challenge.  Therefore it was surely far from unreasonable for him to conclude that prorogation for political purposes was entirely permissible.

    I have one rider though.   If Geoffrey Cox gave BoJo advice that in his opinion such prorogation as BoJo was considering undertaking would be unlawful then I too would be calling for his head.   Going directly contrary to the advice of the Attorney General would be a deliberate act of impropriety.     If however the AG told him it would be lawful then I can see no basis to allege impropriety by Boris.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #36967

    The VFM Addict
    Participant
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 1,849

    There’s an interesting snap poll here taken yesterday by ComRes after the SC decision.  I have to say some of the data surprised me.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #36968

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    The legal opinion from Cox was redacted, so we will never know unless it is leaked.

    I think what really told against the Mendacious One was the absence of a sworn affidavit setting out the reasons for the length of the prorogation when the length of time to prepare for a Queens Speech was noted in court as only three or four days. I’m not so certain that the Mendacious One is completely off the hook if it ever comes out that the real reasons were discussed via email but never openly disclosed to his legal team.

    Back on a Government of National Unity, when the Tories think it through there are very good reasons for them to support such a Government negotiating a populist view of an acceptable Brexit that marginalises the NF wing of the Tories and the Brexit party.

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    #36970

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,850

    As usual we’re being given the stats they want us to see slanted in the way they want us to see them. Just looking at the first headline result:

    The majority of British adults say Jeremy Corbyn (54%) and David Cameron (56%) have acted dishonestly over Brexit – the two highest of all individuals tested.

    Boris was third at 51% Not far behind, still in the “majority of British adults” and hardly endearing, but you’d never know unless you waded through the stats.

    Which I don’t intend to do any more 😀

    Along with David Cameron and Jeremy Corbyn, the majority of British adults say that Boris Johnson has acted dishonestly over Brexit – the top three of all the individuals tested. Nigel Farage was fourth.

    How does that sound?

     

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    #36974

    The VFM Addict
    Participant
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 1,849

    No problem with that, Dave, whatsoever.    But given events, and discarding Cameron as he is no longer in the running, it is very notable that despite the SC ruling Corbyn is still seen as most dishonest.   The problem JC has is that his views as being anti-EU were so very long standing and known that he’ll be forever seen as dishonest.   Long may he reign at Labour.

    Starmer made a statement yesterday that will long come to haunt him I suspect if he ever becomes leader.    When he learned that Cox had told Boris that the protogation was lawful which in the event it was not he said Cox should ‘consider his position’.     Of course as a QC and then as DPP he will know there is an evidence base of him getting things wrong at times; all lawyers do and at times are trashed by the bench.   Crickey, even the most eminent of HC benches has just been trashed by the SC hasn’t it?

    Roll on the GE or a Referendum; regarding the latter I anticipate an even bigger margin for Leave if that happens.    Folks just want the first decision respected and that it be got on with.   The public in general will be furious if they have to go through everything again and even staunch Remainers I have spoken to don’t like the ‘keep on voting until we get the decision we want’ approach.

    On a lighter note I’ve never liked Jo So-So or her position re Brexit but I warmed to her on Monday as a person.   When hearing that Thornberry had likened the LibDem’s fixed position to that of the Taliban, she was very quick witted and said that could not be so or JC would have invited the LibDems to a fringe meeting.    That is wit of the highest calibre.    Funny and getting a dagger thrust in at the same time.  Bravo, Jo, bravo.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #36977

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,850

    You may think that Remain will lose more heavily, the echo chamber I am in says the opposite. I think the answer to everything is either 42 or who the hell knows? I don’t think the Government do. Plan A is bust and there is no Plan B.

    Cox was still hinting that there is a legal rabbit in the hat but MRDA. His answer could also have meant that they will do what the Benn bill says on the tin. The usual legal weasel words.

    It’s all talk but the Government backed by the right wing press have started the Champion of the People narrative. I think it’s all they have even though they are epitome of the Establishment, that’s what I find amusing. Rank hypocrisy seems par for the course, even more so than it always has been. Oh I forgot, schoolboy shouts of chicken across the playground.

    BoJo’s only hope is a deal but he hasn’t come up with anything new. I don’t think there is anything and there never was, just half baked ideas that seem plausible until scrutinised.

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    #36981

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 5,284

    Cox will go when Boris goes. (make it so, captain!) Just like his Transatlantic hero, tried to surround himself with people that agree with him. That’s coming apart at the seams as people leave him when they find out that his position weakens to the point that there is nothing more in supporting Boris for them. What a heap of stinking ordure this government has become: I begin to think that I am living in a parallel universe. Lies, half-truths and Borisms.

    If it’s the Psychic Network why do they need a phone number?

    What’s right is what’s left if you do everything else wrong.

    If women ran the world we wouldn’t have wars, just intense negotiations every 28 days.
    --- Robin Williams

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    #36987

    The VFM Addict
    Participant
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 1,849

    We are, as Dave suggests, in uncharted waters and the answer surely is 42 with no-one really knowing what it means.    However, I would argue that that uncertainty derives not of numerous vectors being unknown but in all probability just one.

    Where once GE’s in the main hinged on a few swing seats while true Labour and Tory heartlands were givens we are now in a whole new landscape.   On that I believe we probably all agree.   Some previously secure Tory heartlands will probably turn Orange and some previously secure Labour heartlands turn Blue or Turquoise on this occasion.   It will, as I see it, be the extent of those new trends which holds sway.    Again I suspect on this we are likely to all agree.   So what vectors are predictable if any?

    I simply do not see organised tactical voting fully endorsed by parties’ ever occurring or any pf the three established English parties stepping aside to give those on the same side of the Brexit debate a clear run at a seat.   Not least because it would cause too much anger in local associations.   Just look at how Harman’s local party have knee-jerked at her standing for Speaker.   No local association wants to fell anything other than fully represented.

    I strongly suspect that Farage will be king-maker.   But not via the number of seats the Brexit Party wins but via the number of seats where he chooses to field a candidate.   The extent to which he chooses to undermine the Tory vote in Tory seats will be critical.   Unlike the Tories and Labour he doesn’t have long established local associations to placate and can chose without fetter.   He has already said he won’t fight ERG held seats and hinted he will not fight any seat where the incumbent was identifiably a Brexiteer.   So where will he choose to fight?   Surely he must focus on heavily Leave voting areas.   To me suggests that Labour will be by far hit hardest simply because in the main it was Labour constituencies where the Leave vote was highest. Moreover those seats are areas (such as Wales and the NE) where the locals would never vote Tory in a hundred years so the Tories lose nothing or very, very little if he adopts such targeting.

    Put differently while on the Brexit side just one person, Farage, effectively controls where major tactical voting can or is likely to occur conversely on the Remain side it is only ever going to occur on a significant scale if literally tens of thousands of party activists consent to it.   Getting agreement on that scale is almost as remote as picking next weeks winning lottery numbers.

    So, yes, I do agree with Dave that we are in unknown 42-Land but what meagre signposts as exist suggest to me that the Tories will remain the largest party.   And that is what all polling consistently continues to suggest.   It is surely only by how far they will be the largest party that is the incalculable.   Will it provide sufficient numbers to constitute a working majority for Boris, with possibly the support of the DUP and Brexit Party MP’s that might be elected, who knows?   But that IMHO is solely where the core unpredictability resides.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    Here's hoping the Mad Tangerine of the West and the Mad Monk of the East stay friends or we're all in trouble

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    #36990

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,850

    Remember how many points TM was ahead last time?

    What a disgusting show from Johnson last night, it’s clear compromise is not on the table so he won’t get what he craves. As I’ve said many time the harder the Leave side gets the stronger they make the opposition. Every trick, prorogation, early election, has been seen for what it is. All they have left is bluster.

    This language is dangerous. The word humbug (deceptive or false talk or behaviour) used against someone facing death threats is atrocious. It may play to his populist audience but they aren’t enough. If there is another death this time he is done for and Brexit with it. The public will finally have had enough.

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    #36991

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    Lets be clear, unfortunately I do not think there will ever be an elected Government of National Unity.

    Rather, I think if BoJo does not pull an EU rabbit out of the hat within the next week, there WILL be a successful motion of no confidence in his slimy Government, but then someone such as Ken Clark will stand up and say that he has sufficient support from all parties to go to the Queen and form an interim Government to sort out the mess that the mendacious BoJo and his untrustworthy gang have caused, and promise to negotiate (a soft) Brexit with the EU, then set up a referendum to either approve this or remain. Following this he will stand down for a General Election.

    The hard line Conservatives are now in a minority, so it only needs everyone else to gang together under the common purpose of shafting the Johnson/Mogg gang.  Johnson’s recent petulant antics make this an ever easier task.

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    #36994

    JayCeeDee
    Participant
    @jayceedee
    Forumite Points: 3,792

    Moreover those seats are areas (such as Wales and the NE) where the locals would never vote Tory in a hundred years so the Tories lose nothing or very, very little if he adopts such targeting.

    I have an older Welsh friend, ( started life very poor working class, but who became head teacher at an Oxford school )  and one of her expressions that comes up a lot at the moment, is ” Time was you could have a pit-pony as a candidate in most Welsh elections, and so long as it had a red rosette, it would win!!”😀😀

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    #36995

    JayCeeDee
    Participant
    @jayceedee
    Forumite Points: 3,792

    Rather, I think if BoJo does not pull an EU rabbit out of the hat within the next week, there WILL be a successful motion of no confidence in his slimy Government, but then someone such as Ken Clark will stand up and say that he has sufficient support from all parties to go to the Queen and form an interim Government to sort out the mess that the mendacious BoJo and his untrustworthy gang have caused, and promise to negotiate (a soft) Brexit with the EU, then set up a referendum to either approve this or remain. Following this he will stand down for a General Election.

     

    Ken Clarke certainly has the political heritage and credentials to be up to that task, but I’m not sure he’s physically up to it. He is now looking very old and frail, it is only down to the fact that he was of a solid stature prior to now, that he doesn’t look ‘iller’ or more frail than he does. His health might not allow him to take on the huge stress, although his character ( and I avoid ego, purposefully,) would certainly be up to the task, plus he may see it it as a worthwhile opportunity to go down in history as the  one who pulled the country out from the political mire, the way Churchill did during wartime years in the 40’s.

    Add to that the whispers in his ear from his current, frequent Back Bench neighbour ( TM ) who knows what could occur!!

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    #36996

    Alan Wood
    Participant
    @alanrwood
    Forumite Points: 862

    Regarding Ken Clarke. When asked about a month ago if he would be willing he did say he would do it. The other suggestion at the time was Harriet Harman but I am sure there are other MPs who could fill the bill.

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