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Off with his head!

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  • #36937
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps

    Supreme Court: Suspending Parliament was unlawful, judges rule.

    Irrespective of Brexit I am extremely glad to see this ruling. Ever since TBLiar took us into an illegal war with the threat of proroguing in the background  I have been very concerned about our system of elected sometimes unelected temporary dictatorship. We needed some checks and balances against a deluded leader, and now we have a precedent.

    The topic header was of course tongue in cheek, what sanction if any there is for misleading the monarch remains to be seen, but the mendacious BoJo would be well advised to avoid Scotland for a while as he has been in contempt of their court for over a week!

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  • #37003
    Participant
    Bob Williams
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 12,471

    Harriet Harman would get my vote. (if I had one!) I believe she has the integrity that most of the inhabitants of Westminster are lacking. She also has bigger stones than most of the male politicians.

    After yesterday’s Battle of the Benches, Boris is now showing his true colours: humbugging a murdered Labour MP. Shades of his American puppet master. What a truly disagreeable human being he is becoming: anyone’s true characteristics are always demonstrated when their backs are against the wall.

    When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
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    #37005
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 14,758

    I should have perhaps added that the statesman-like Ken Clark’s age and possible frailty are plus points as there will be little fear that he will outstay his welcome, just get the job done and retire to plaudits.

    Incidentally, I am fed up  with hearing that people ‘Just want Brexit done no matter what!’.

    Don’t these idiots know that a Hard Brexit would embroil us in a further seven long years of trade and Irish border discussions with the EU? During such a period every Brexit boil would be tortured all over again e.g. immigration, fish stocks, human rights etc.

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    #37020
    Participant
    Bob Williams
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 12,471

    They don’t care Ed and they refuse to listen to logic and reason. I am sick and tired of the airheads on FB ranting about “getting it done!” What does not seem to occur to them is that a sizeable majority of them will be the ones out of work when it all finally goes TU. I regret to appear disparaging, but most of the ones I mean have difficulty spelling their own names, or anything that they type into FB. No offence to anyone with Dyslexia: I have a son and gson with that condition. I mean the ones who skipped as much school as they could, never tried to understand anything that made their heads hurt, and look on education as an unnecessary waste of their telly viewing or drinking time. The real problem is that there are millions of UK citizens like that.

    We are in deep doo doo and no one has a bucket to bail us out.

    When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
    I'm out.

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    #37030
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    Time for a Brexit Summary I guess.

    Parliament – We can’t decide, it’s to important. The people must choose.

    The People – Leave.

    Parliament – Wrong choice.

    The People – Ah so we don’t live in a democracy then.  Now we get it.   Bring on an Election so we can vote in those who will honour democracy.

    Any problem with that folks?

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    #37032
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    Remember how many points TM was ahead last time?

    Oh BTW, Dave, I forgot to reply to those words.

    Everyone agrees that Immigration was a key factor in the Leave vote.    Labour retained many of its core voters in 2017 because in its 2017 manifesto it stated that it would honour the Referendum result and that Freedom of Movement will end when we leave the European Union (!).

    Truly, Dave, how do you think the new totally open door policy voted for at the Labour conference last week, a policy far worse even than EU Freedom of Movement rules, will go down?    My thoughts are that it was a political suicide note or at the very least the discharge by Labour of both 12 gauge barrels into their own feet.   It amazes me that Labour are so inept not to recognise such.   Even two staunch left leaning Remainers I know and who are ultra keen on EU Free movement are literally horrified at Labour’s new stance.   A stance which is that that anyone on planet Earth can walk straight in and get benefits and voting rights the very second their feet touch UK soil.   Is it not true that movement-wise the effect of this new Labour policy is even worse than if Turkey, Libya, Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, the Sudan, the Yemen, etc., etc., all joined the EU at the same time.    ‘Even worse’ because even if those states had all joined the EU simultaneously then their nationals would not have been able to claim benefits and have voting rights the seconds they arrived.    What rational individual in any impoverished state would not set sail for the UK instantly.    Truly, the Labour Policy is bonkers, is it not?

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    #37034
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 14,758

    @VFM – you showed precisely what is wrong with the way Brexit has been approached over the last three years. It was confrontational and never inclusive of the concerns of nearly half of the population who did not vote Brexit. A Hard Brexit is even more confrontational and only good for those who have shorted Sterling.

    The only way to bring the country together now is a Government of National Unity. Ditch a Hard Brexit, seek time from the EU and for the Brexiteers to recognise that the Irish border is an insoluble barrier and that we must accept the Customs Union and avoid the Hard Brexit five years during which we would negotiate pretty much the same thing!

    Your talk of democracy is laughable given the Mendacious Ones flaunting of both democracy and the law!

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    #37035
    Participant
    Dave Rice
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 7,963

    I’m not sure why you aimed a comment about the Labour party at me. I am not a Labour voter unless it’s worth it tactically. Buy I agree with you, Labour is a mess.

    With regards to your binary Must Leave vs Must Remain nobody ever campaigned on the basis of No Deal, quite the opposite. We were told how easy it would be. Whilst disappointed we were leaving I would have been content with a Deal. Indeed I still cannot see what is so wrong with TM’s transition arrangements, because that is what they are and so often lost in the Hard Brexit clamour. They are not the end state.

    Talk of vassal and slave states is clearly dog whistle politics now joined by “surrender” and calling anything you don’t like humbug. Is this really all Leave have left in the arguments? The transition arrangements weren’t hard enough for our liking so we’ll ramp up the rhetoric and division in the country instead of attempting a compromise.

    As Ed says, in the state of a disorderly Brexit it doesn’t actually solve anything it all. Be careful what you wish for, the tactics of the wilder end of the Conservative Party are causing real issues in this country that may take a generation to resolve. When this all goes spectacularly wrong the backlash will be just as bad. In the current climate I can see violence taking place, indeed it’s already started with Jess Phillips, and someone is going to get badly hurt if not dead again.

    If that happens it will be down to the behaviour of our so called Government who have lost control of everything, including their own destiny, by their own actions. Instead of learning from the mistakes they double down on repeating them. Until the Conservative Party has finally torn itself apart in it’s own 30 years pyscho drama it seems this is all we can expect. The “responsible party” they are not.

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    #37039
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    Dave, I wasn’t suggesting you were ever a Labour voter.    I was addressing solely you suggestion re swing between election called and election vote.   The point I was making was that the new Labour stance is only ever likely to alienate many of those who stuck with Labour in 2017 because it said it would honour the Referendum result and that FoM would end.

    Don’t even go near the question of language.   Leavers have been insulted is so many ways over the last three year it would be impossible to list them all.   And if its so bad to use strong language why did the Labour party sing its usual Red Flag anthem last week which includes:

    “Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer, We’ll keep the red flag flying here”

    Or the LibDems ever chant – “TONY BLAIR CAN F**K OFF AND DIE” at their conference?

    I think “surrender” and “humbug” are mild by comparison.

    And just for good measure some quotes from John McDonnell who complained re BoJo’s language:

     

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    #37041
    Participant
    Bob Williams
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 12,471

    Totally agree with all of that Dave. I have just read a disgusting FB post by my nephew, to the effect that death threats are justice for MP’s who have not produced Brexit yet.

    Sometimes the sheer crass stupidity of people appals me, it’s worse when it’s one of my own family. His dad would have given him a slap. Some Brexiteers are now reaching pond slime level. That’s one less on the Christmas card list.

    When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
    I'm out.

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    #37043
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 14,758

    As Dave has said before, absolutely no-one voted for a Hard Brexit. Instead everyone voted for a mythical easy Brexit that would have no down-sides and bring back £350 million/week to be spent on the NHS.  Any rational objections  were dismissed by Boris et al as FUD.

    [edit] btw many objected to May’s solution as it would have resulted in at least two years arguing over what replaced a Customs Union for the whole island of Ireland.

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 1 week ago by Ed P.
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    #37055
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    I do agree that No Deal was not the Leave case during the Ref.   But equally it might well have been easier to achieve what the Leave prognosis was had May not gifted the order of discussion to the EU at the start and generally played whatever hand we had as badly as it could ever have been played.    The reality though is that we are where we now now are like it or not and the landscape is very different.

    I cannot see that the original Remain argument about being at the heart of Europe helping guide it is any longer viable.    Once we have demonstrated that we will never leave as we would have were we now to remain our voice would no longer need to be listened to.  That’s what I mean about where we are now being different from pre-the Ref vote.

    I equally cannot see also that being in any form of a customs union or single market over which we had no say as a third party country would allow us to gain any real benefit from having left.   So that option to me appears as impotent as remaining.

    No Deal is now as I see it the only option.    Yep we will take a hit short term.  But a third country FTA along the lines of Canada +++ truly seems the best option to me from where we now are.   One thing is sure the EU is more reliant on us as an export market than it ever was on Canada so we hold as least as strong negotiating cards as they did indeed probably stronger.   The need for the EU to gain FT access to our markets asap is also more urgent than it was to gain FT access to Canada’s so setting up a Canada +++ style FTA should be far quicker.

    Funnily the above arguments were not mine but those of a staunch Remainer I know who said for him the Rubicon has now long been crossed and there’s no going back.   He would now vote Leave not because he believes that was the best option pre-Ref vote but because the Rubicon having been crossed he sees No Deal as is the only route forward from where we are now.   I’ve not spoken to him this week but I suspect that given  his view that were we to now Remain we would have no credible voice I suspect he would not differ significantly from Boris re use of the word “surrender”.

    What of the Backstop?  I simply cannot see that inherent in the GFA was ever an obligation to remain in the EU,  Customs Union or Single Market in perpetuity.     I also do not see the troubles returning to N.I. under any circumstances.    I do not say such flippantly because I have very considerable skin in that game.   My two first born have lived in County Antrim for over 20 years now; my first wife having married an ex UK squaddie, an Ulsterman, after we divorced and moved ‘home’ with him almost immediately.   Having lived there since before secondary school age my two boys, now in their thirties  consider themselves Ulstermen and unsurprisingly have strong accents to match.

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    #37060
    Participant
    Dave Rice
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 7,963

    What a load of nonsense IMO, of course we’d be listened to. If the EU wouldn’t listen to us why then would any other country in the world? How many times have we been told they need us more than we need them? The phrase is just reversed then reversed again to suit the argument of the day.

    Much like Schrodingers Prorogation which has nothing to do with Brexit until it’s deemed illegal. Then that is seen as an attempt to stop Brexit. I guess that is what Populism is all about, get that dog whistle out.

    Just because someone was a Remainer and has changed their mind doesn’t give them some God like powers to predict the future. It’s just another opinion. Perhaps I should trot out the many Leavers that have changed their mind in the face of reality? It’s pointless doing so.

    “Short term hit” is another throw away phrase and as loaded as “Clean Brexit” is with obscurity and misdirection. How short, what will be the hits and how deep will they be? If you’re going to say these things back them up with some credible projections.

    On our local TV Boris points out to the sheep farmers of Exmoor, of which apparently his family are one, they currently don’t sell to the USA. The implication being that a No Deal devastation of their current market will be replaced by a new market in the USA. No mention of the current ban on any red meat from the UK to the US nor of any timescales for over turning that. He must also know from his own family farm that it’s a precarious business and not likely to last long enough to seriously worry the Kiwis. The recent deal with Japan has been mentioned by other ministers, they fail to mention the projection that at best it would replace a mere 3% of the market. But people believe these sound bites that are put to them and seem more credible by the implication that he’s in the same boat. I seriously doubt he’s ever had his hand up a sheep’s back end at lambing time.

    The NAO has worries about 40% of the medicine supplies in the Govt’s plans. Turns out the Govt figures only include the NHS, they have no idea about the situation for the 24,000 care homes. Hmm didn’t hear Gove mention that.

    Industry doesn’t recognise Gove’s assertion (in reply to Keir Starmer) that the major sectors are “ready”. Indeed they cannot understand how he can possibly have got that opinion after their meeting. That was to journalists of all persuasions, not politicians.

    It’s just blatant lie and deliberate obfuscation one after another and they must know it’ll unravel and explode in their faces. But I find politicians work like that, do anything to get over the line and worry about the consequences later. Much like the Leave campaign really.

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    #37068
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    If the EU wouldn’t listen to us why then would any other country in the world?

    Dave, I would have thought that was very easy to understand but it seems from your words you do not understand it.

    If we remained in the EU then the EU would listen to us but have no reason to pay particular attention because we would obviously do whatever it said; having demonstrated that we had such a void of confidence in ourselves and a clear belief that we were totally reliant on the EU such that plainly we would never leave no matter what they chose to do.   While in the EU and with trade policy, foreign policy, etc., increasingly being decided by the EU for all of its member states the rest of the world would increasingly know it should deal with the EU and not its individual member states because they increasingly would be void of any autonomy in any significant matter.   Its while remaining in the EU that the world would have less and less reason to ever listen to us.

    However, outside of the EU we, the fifth biggest economy in the world, would have full autonomy on all important matters trade, foreign, etc.    Therefore the world would need to talk to us direct.

    Hope that helps you grasp that which are clearly the inevitable realities of being in or out of the EU.

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    #37070
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 14,758

    I suspect that we may well slip to sixth position behind India post-Brexit!

    However I see the duplicitous ‘Mendacious One’ is said to be revealing his ‘rabbit’ sometime at or after the Tory Conference. Based on his track record of shafting friends and colleagues when it is in his personal interest that means he is about to shaft the Tories with something they will find unacceptable. He will then use his powers of oratory to say that it is necessary in order to win the next General Election.

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    #37071
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    With the size and growth of India that was always on the cards in or out of the EU.   But as India grows that gives us more opportunities to ourselves market to them.

    As for the rabbit in the hat we will have to wait and see what it is.   However, I like many, even in political circles, are pretty sure there is one but  remain baffled what it is.   If he’s truly revealing it at conference he is clearly confident that by then it will be too late to be interfered with one would imagine.

    As a marketeer I have been looking at the election messages in proposed and live ads.    From a marketing perspective they are perhaps the best offering I have ever seen from a political party.  Yes. they are promises that may not be kept but hell that’s always been true of many ‘firm’ election commitments made by all parties,  isn’t it.     For example,Labour – Out of the EU FoM will end BUT NOW EVEN BEFORE WE ARE OUT we’ll open the door then times wider.

    Still can’t get over that new Labour position,   Did Screaming Lord Sutch gift it to them as  a plan in a sealed envelope only to be opened long after his death?   Because their is no question that it is Monster, Raving, Loony.   One must wonder how strong is the Labour Leftie Bubble if activists living within it even begin to think that policy is saleable to their core voters?    The young will also know that with such an open door policy the property markets will flood such that the chances of them getting somewhere to live will be even harder and its hard enough already.  Talk about alienating groups you are relying on for support.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

    During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.

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    #37073
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 14,758

    You obviously have never done business in India. On a scale of 1-awful to 10-a Joy, India crawls in at a 2 or 3! It is certainly the most difficult country to work with in the sub-continent. India still has a big colonial chip on their shoulder so do not look to them to be impressed by the UK outside the EU – quite the contrary.

    Papers are now saying that a no-confidence vote could be triggered early next week assuming one of the elder statesmen (not Corbyn) ponies up as leader, so the duplicitous aspects of the Mendacious One could be due for a premature reveal.

    I suspect that Corbyn has already figured that being temporary PM is a poisoned chalice so he may well be quite happy to throw his lot behind an elder statesman.

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    #37075
    Participant
    Wheels-Of-Fire
    @grahamdearsley
    Forumite Points: 5,352

    Back to the EU listening to us, they stopped listening to us a couple of years BEFORE we had our vote. After they rearanged things so that we lost our veto on most votes we became nothing more than a small pain in their fat a**es. It is a major reason to leave in the first place.

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    #37083
    Participant
    Bob Williams
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 12,471

    VFM, do your boys live in West Belfast or Derry? No, Antrim. The Troubles are a long way from over and are actually getting worse:

    https://tinyurl.com/y3rnzu7p

    I was among the first in for Op Motorman in ’69 and I did tours during the 70’s. I know what that situation is like and I know there is no quick fix. It will take decades more before the current and later generations slowly learn to live together. That is happening, but progress is slow and a lot of the current paramilitaries are young people, trained and brainwashed by the older ratbags, some of whom I probably know and many of whom were let out of jail by the “Peacemaker” (pauses, spits) Blair. Have you been avoiding the news, apart from the Brexiteer publications?

    The FP report mentions Andersontown. That’s where I lost my mate: not killed, but last seen as a vegetable in a Cheshire Home. Parts of his skull blood and brains were all over my combats.

     

    When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
    I'm out.

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    #37085
    Blocked
    The VFM Addict
    @thevfmaddict
    Forumite Points: 2,901

    Not sure of the point you are seeking to make, Bob?   The title of the piece you linked to is explicit – “Paramilitaries Are Surging Again in Northern Ireland.   And it’s not because of Brexit” and includes the following text:

    ‘But while the international media has brimmed with dire warnings of the consequences of Brexit, in Northern Ireland talk of the supposed return of the paramilitaries sounds disconnected.  That’s because they never really went away. Official police records suggest their presence has been on the rise since 2007—years before any talk of hard borders, backstops, or customs posts. The cause of the problem is far more closely linked to deteriorating conditions in Northern Ireland itself rather than the United Kingdom’s impending exit from the European Union.’

    Are you agreeing that Brexit has nothing to do with it?  I’m confused.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________

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    #37087
    Participant
    Ed P
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 14,758

    I think Bob is implying that anything that raises emotions (and Brexit certainly does that) gets reflected in an upsurge of Nationalism. I think that Bob is just raising a warning flag. He is correct to do so as the temperature has certainly risen in the last two years. (Parcel bombs with lots of warnings to selected London targets and numerous Ulster shooting/bomb incidents).

    A Hard Brexit would inflame emotions to boiling point in both Eire and Ulster with the UK taking the blame.

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