Poppies and football

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 7 voices, and was last updated by Bob Williams 1 week ago.

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  • #28025

    blacklion1725
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    @blacklion1725

    Was listening to TalkSport on my drive in this morning – debate around whether footballers (2 in particular- Matic and Mclean)should have been “forced” to wearPoppies having refused to do so.

    My view is mainly that forcing people to do anything against their will defeats the whole point. Having said that, in the case of (especially )Mclean I do woder how deep the conviction actually is. Not wearing a Poppy is free , easy and down with the cool kids – a more profound action such as refusing to live/work/play in the country that you have such an ingrained resentment towards would get more respect from me.

    It is his choice – but there is a reason he is free to make that choice – if that is outweighed by his own political views maybe a better protest would be to shun the millions he earns in the heart of the enemy and choose a more honourable and untainted trade in homeland. Wonder why he doesn’t do that ££££££££.

    Rant over.

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  • #28027

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,043

    I spent a lot of time(s) in Ireland, and I know that the resentment that some Irish people hold against the UK is deeply held. I was once demanded in an Irish pub, “Give us back our 6 Counties!”

    “Certainly,” I said and the room fell quiet, I could feel the hate. “But can you give me a chance to talk about how my ancestors were just as oppressed by the British establishment and the ruling classes, as were the people of Eire, the Welsh and the Scots, during the Highland Clearances?”

    I had been educated at a young age by a grandfather who was a founder member of the original Independent Labour Party at the turn of the 19th century. They gave me the chance to speak and I went for it: I spoke political, social and economic truth for over an hour, and was pleased when a cold, frothing pint of the Black Stuff was passed up for my raw throat. There was a silence when I finished “Please accept what I have told you, ladies and gentlemen. All of it is checkable if you can find the right books and records.”

    I was absolutely stunned to be given a long, loud round of applause and I hope I left some understanding in that bar. One guy told me that the early life of my dad as a miner from 1920 t0 the War Years and retirement in ’69, with a ruined spine and just £200 to show for it, had affected him emotionally.

    Then I sang “The Rocks ‘o’ Bawn”* for them, which I had learned in an Irish accent from an old West of Ireland mate. I was always welcome in that bar, although once or twice as I stood at the door, someone would give a slight shake of the head, meaning there were people in the back room who would not take kindly to my presence.

    *https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjHn9vIysDeAhWMAcAKHWCCD9sQ3ywwAHoECAcQBA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DG6oqBKE1ObY&usg=AOvVaw0pGWojKsZv4qzhEGBugv0K

    A beautiful song. I actually love Ireland and the Irish, hate Irish jokes, although the Southern Irish tel jokes about “A guy/2 guys from Cork.”

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #28031

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 1,326

    If you force someone to do something like this it loses it’s value.

    We were talking last night, Mrs and my 27 & 19 yo, about how much more popular poppies are this year. The poppy seller at Parkway station reckoned he took £1,200 yesterday afternoon. He thinks it’s to do with the WW1 celebrations but I also think we see far more of ex-forces now through things like Invictus. This means we see the scale of the carnage from places like Afghanistan and realise it’s not just a handful affected.

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    #28032

    blacklion1725
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    @blacklion1725
    Forumite Points: 754

    Good read that Bob

    Dave – agree 100% – it is and should be voluntary. I just question the convictions of the player – given that he is very happy to live and work in this country, taking full advantage of the freedoms and opportunities that were paid for by the sacrifice of others. If was actually that scarred by the previous actions of the Bristish establishment and armed forces surely a more meaningful protest would be to boycott theis country and work in Ireland (only draw back being hewould not be a multi-millionaire). But I suppose “not wearing a poppy” doesn’t dent his income.

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    #28033

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,121

    Imo the First World War (which originated Poppy Day) was a horrible carnage which in the old saying was a case of Lions led by Donkeys re-fighting the Battle of Balaclava. It is a war that should never have taken place, and there is a strong argument that it was only the Parisian whoring of Edward VII and his Enente Cordiale that caused us to be dragged into it. It was not a battle for freedoms but a schoolboy spat that should never have developed into a war. What is even worse is that it then probably led directly to the causes of the second World War..

    That said, I do honour those who have been dragged into the modern equivalents by the likes of TBLiar. It just irks me that we find it necessary to have charities doing the work that should be done by our Government. Instead this work should be paid for by taxing those like the football players BL despises.

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    #28035

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 1,326

    It’s not a moral argument I want to get into as I can see both sides. These things go through fashions in what is socially acceptable and what isn’t. If I were in the public eye I’d go with the prevailing wind unless I had a very good reason not to. But then of course some may call you two faced with no moral conviction.

    Probably a no win scenario, which is why it’s probably better to just go with the flow.

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    #28037

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,755

    No one should be made to wear the poppy. It’s a charity arter all. The last few years have been a discrace regarding TV hosts being bullied into wearing them.

    If anything this type of witch huntery, puts me off wanting one. Not to mention I’m not a fan of charities that prop government systems up. I like what thy do, just with the government would do it, and the charity not be needed.

    Not got a poppy myself this year. Not out of any reason, bar its passed me by, and I’ve seen no sellers at all. Which is very strange. The supermarkets are usally ripe for OAP ambushes lol.

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    #28050

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,043

    I didn’t get one to wear, SWMBO did, but mine is a big one that sits in the front air vents of the car and waves at other drivers in the airflow, through the windscreen, lol.

    Since the end of WWI and before, there have been thousands of Irish players in English clubs, from both sides of the border and the Sectarian divide. I have never heard of another Irish player refusing to wear a poppy, although I may be wrong. Perhaps the one with (on the surface) a very anti-English attitude, who might have been expected to do so, is the intractable, irascible Roy Keane. Which would be a bit silly of him, as during his time at Forest he met and married a Nottingham lass. He is still actually revered in Nottingham, at least on one side of the river Trent. In one pub where some of the Tricky Tree faithful go, he occasionally turns up, unannounced, and really can enjoy a night without media attention. Most of the “lads” are his age or older and he is just one of the crew there. Any media persons who invaded that space, might be found floating in the Trent.

    I don’t do Reunions and I don’t do the Legion or Remembrance parades, although I have no antipathy to those who do. I just can’t stand all those “Pull up a sandbag, swing the lamp and sit down” people, many of whom try to convince you that they had performed some dangerous military action, when they were probably a long way from it during their service. My own tributes are paid whenever I see a War memorial, at any time of year. In memory of absent mates, I stand with head bowed and  hat off, eyes closed, remembering all those I knew who did not get a chance to stand there with me. One day at Sutton-on-Sea, 2 of 3 young lads were sniggering at this. To my surprise, the 3rd lad told them to “Shut the f**k up!” and stood with me. “My granddad died at Arnhem.” he said. I still see this lad occasionally, as I visit S-on-S regularly and bow my head at the Memorial every time before I leave. That lad has stood with me again.

    It means considerably more to those who have been involved and have lost mates: mates you serve with and perhaps fight alongside are mates for life, at least for me. Most of those are gone now, two by their own hands. Those with a family connection feel that loss just as much if not more. The lad in S-on-S told me that he wished his granddad had survived, as he would have loved to have known him for at least a few years. I can relate to that.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #28062

    Tippon
    Keymaster
    @tippon
    Forumite Points: 1,113

    No one should be made to wear the poppy. It’s a charity arter all. The last few years have been a discrace regarding TV hosts being bullied into wearing them. If anything this type of witch huntery, puts me off wanting one. Not to mention I’m not a fan of charities that prop government systems up. I like what thy do, just with the government would do it, and the charity not be needed.

    This pretty much sums up how I feel.

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    #28065

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 1,326

    Personally I agree with you, but the original post was about people in the public eye and specifically an Irishman and a Serbian. No-one will be holding us to account on national radio and I don’t think they should be either, but they are.

    Should it be a post Brexit requirement that visiting workers should be made to adhere to all our traditions? (I bring Brexit in as it would be a chance to formalise this what with being Sovereign and all that). I’ve seen what people studying for British nationality have to learn and I’ll tell you now no-one here would have a chance of passing the exam. IIRC it doesn’t mention poppies either,  but it does Coronation Street and some other soaps and not just in passing in some detail.

    Do you know why Matic got to be a 6 footer? It’s because his mother never hit him with a broom, accidentally or on purpose. That’s the sort of question you’d get in a Serbian nationality exam if it were like ours.

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    #28080

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,043

    Do you know why Matic got to be a 6 footer? It’s because his mother never hit him with a broom, accidentally or on purpose.

    😆😁Makes me laugh (bitterly), when I compare my own childhood Dave! I am 5’4½” and was once 5’7″, mam would hit me with anything and once put me in a 3-day coma at 6yo, after which I spent 2½ years at my aunt’s in the Potteries, returning when she had been treated for a mental disease. Never had an ounce of love for her all my life, but gave her unstinting care when she became old and ill. Dad I loved unceasingly and still do in memory: he took me to aunt’s and visited me every other weekend, despite other family commitments, a 5 or 6 bus trip and a week of mining work.

    Dave, I know you are a Bristol lad, perhaps you would like to read the story of Larry Lloyd –

    http://tinyurl.com/yal567cu

    – born & bred Bristol Rovers fan and player, who played for Liverpool and my own club Forest, where he twice won the then European Cup and other trophies with us. Still lives in Nottingham, is revered by the City not just as a player, but as a man with so many forthright views. Has very interesting stories from childhood to the present. I once met him many years ago, coming out of the sunset, on Ilfracombe beach – a huge bloke with a child on each shoulder. When we got close I realised who he was and started a conversation. He sent the kids to the sea for a last paddle, we sat on the beach talking, then all went to a local cafe where the kids had the last ice cream of the dayand we had a coffee, his accompanied by a huge fry up. I bought the book, signed personally by him at a local bookshop years later, with a remembrance – after all those years, he remembered me instantly. Considering his history in the book, I thought that was remarkable! Still had that Bristolian burr in his speech, still an interesting guy. We met again later for a drink and a meal and he says that Bristol and Nottingham are his two favourite places. His book is one of a collection of Forest players, all signed. Plus a couple from Mr. Clough of course.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #28083

    blacklion1725
    Participant
    @blacklion1725
    Forumite Points: 754

    I remember Larry Lloyd from my youth Bob – and his partner (sometimes in crime!) Kenny Burns. Great era of football that. People say Leicester winning the league was the biggest miracle ever – but for me Forest winning the European Cup – twice in a row – easily tops that. Incredible looking back. As always enjoyed the read Bob – always interesting.

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    #28084

    PlaneMan
    Moderator
    @planeman
    Forumite Points: 1,307

    The Poppy Appeal always costs me a bit of money, usually £15+ over a couple of weeks as i always put something in the tin.

    This year I’ve had to do things differently as I don’t always have cash on me and sometimes the collectors are in awkward (for me) places in the supermarkets.  I put £20 in the Legion box and took a few badges and poppys. As I know the bloke that organizes the appeal this side of Cardiff  and for most of Penarth I’ve had a car sticker in place for about 6 weeks and one of the larger, harder to get hold of 100 year commemorative badges for about the same amount of time.  Can’t recall what I gave for them, I’d had a few Guinness.

    Nobody should be made to wear a Poppy, just kicked in the plums if they don’t. 😋

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    #28085

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,121

    Bob, you should gather together all your various musings and have them printed and bound, then deposit a copy in your local county archive.

    Social history can be of great interest to future historians. It is often extremely difficult to obtain such information from the ‘ordinary’ person. Its the rich, generals and political ne’er do wells who get to write their (often distorted) view of history. The ‘real’ story rarely gets told.

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    #28086

    blacklion1725
    Participant
    @blacklion1725
    Forumite Points: 754

    Ed/Bob that is a great idea – and don’t be selfish and keep it to the Midlands – I love reading your stories and they should get a wider audience.

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    #28087

    PlaneMan
    Moderator
    @planeman
    Forumite Points: 1,307

    Ed/Bob that is a great idea – and don’t be selfish and keep it to the Midlands – I love reading your stories and they should get a wider audience.

    Totally agree. I’m currently trying to get a near 80 year old to record his stories before his memory starts to fail. He has some amazing ones, was at school with John Lennon, used to drive for one of the F.A. bigwigs, knew Ken Dodd (his daughters have original Diddy Men) and also knew Jimmy Tarbuck. He also did national service in Cyprus when the crisis was happening and almost got killed by his own mates when a donkey strayed too close to the wire. There are more.

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    #28091

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 1,755

    Just think I manout making immigrants eat and join in I’m local traditions. I’m all up for it, as eating a bowl of scouse and stealing an escort for a joy ride, is far better than making someone eat jellied eels and mash. Lol. 🍻

    I’m not for traditions, or anything that I feel is enforced fun. It’s why weddings are always crap, and funeral always good. (after you get the dead body bit out of the way).

    My hypocrisy is back, I hate tradition but love history? Hmm.. Doesn’t the former become thd latter at some point. Just don’t think to deeply about it. Lol.

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    #28109

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 2,043

    Thanks for the kind words guys, I took them to heart. I will try to get around to the book when I have received the All Clear regarding the Big C situation. Not ‘if’, when! 🤓 Then I have a backlog of stuff piled up, which I have been trying to address intermittently, when I have a good day or two. The problem has been a lack of energy, tiredness bordering on exhaustion, and memory slippage, all caused by Chemo and drug effects:some Forumites may recognise that themselves. Atm my platelets are low, which is why I continue to suffer wet shaving bleeds which take ages to clot, and why after nurse recommendation to dry shave, has me calling at Argos to pick up a dry shaver. This was new nurse to me, and the best one yet, who listened to all my side effects and gave me great info. She reminded me of the fine actress Juliette Stevenson in looks and speech. No, not falling in love, I am much too old and tired and cautious of my SWMBO’s reaction to that!😚🤐 I recall being handbagged around the head by her when we first dated, for whipping around on the dance floor to boogey with 2 blondes. I recovered soon enough for a tongue lashing…

    I always have a Poppy in the car, I realise that it is 100 years, but some of the stuff regarding WWI is a bit OTT for me. My own feeling about War is that it is complete and utter shite, with people sending off others to commit themselves to being killed and maimed for reasons that in later decades become recognised as irrelevant, unknown, or simply to advance whatever political, economic or social cause/events the senders wanted to happen. As a former soldier with 12 years service in some shiteholes, I can say that with experience. When the last Remembrance Sunday happens, and there are never any more, the world will be a better place. The problem is the swords never become plowshares after any (temporary) Peace happens. There is much, much more profit and many jobs in Arms manufacture in Sales for the swords than in Plowshare construction and sales. Especially for the massive multinationals, who will sell weapons of war to opposing sides of any conflict with perfect consciences. The greatest technological advances made today are in weaponry, a negative comment upon this world and its dominant species.

    Rant over guys, settle down at the back!

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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