Read First if flying on a Boeing 737 Max–or maybe not!

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This topic contains 29 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Richard 1 week ago.

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  • #28046

    Ed P
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    @edps

    According to this Gizmodo report the Boeing 737 Max can abruptly dive ‘by mistake’! This may well have caused the Lion Air crash off Indonesia in which everyone died.

    I bet if were an Airbus the CAA would immediately ground all such planes until it the fault was proven to be rectified.

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  • #31661

    PlaneMan
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    @planeman
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    One of the many great Creedence songs. Bad Moon Rising, Fortunate Son, Proud Mary, Run Through The Jungle, It Came Out Of The Sky, Lodi and more I can’t recall spring to mind.

    I believe Bob is also a fan.

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    #31668

    JayCeeDee
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    @jayceedee
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    Green River, Who’ll Stop the Rain and Up Around the bend spring to mind – and yes, I’ve been a long term fan too.

    Their sound is a sort of Blues/Country (Bluegrass style )/Rock mix – gets me every time!!

    • This reply was modified 1 week, 5 days ago by JayCeeDee.
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    #31828

    Ed P
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    @edps
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    #31832

    Richard
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    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 1,833

    That ties a number of other reports together and possibly explains why they were finally grounded in the US. I read that as an end-result design issue.

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    #31857

    Bob Williams
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    @bullstuff2
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    Nolan & JCD, yes I love Creedence. John Fogerty is still touring AFAIK, still making great music. “Run Through The Jungle” is all about the US Gun Lobby; “#200 million guns are loading, Satan cries ‘Take Aim!’# ” No one else has a voice like John Fogerty’s! ‘Like singing through a bucket of gravel’ is one quote I recall. “Lodi” the town venue in the song, is about the equivalent of a Northern English club scene in the ’60’s and ’70’s.

    A happier song is “Lookin’ Out My Back Door”. John is said to have written that after watching Monty Python for the first time.

    Ed, that is a sobering link. Penny pinching that is going to cost them $billions, I believe.

    “If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.”
    ― Philip K. Dick, legendary SF writer.

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    #31882

    Richard
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    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 1,833

    Ed, that is a sobering link. Penny pinching that is going to cost them $billions, I believe.

    Bob, there is yet more sobering comment about how well the FAA handled themselves and their safety roles in certifying the ‘new’ plane.  Single points of failure should never be a design item, yet the comments suggest that was almost feature. One that has caused too many to pay a deadly price. I agree, that result should be a costly bill to those responsible; – but that will not recover any of the lives needlessly cut short.

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    #31885

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,980

    What worries me is the amount of money and (US Defense budget) associated with getting these potential disasters back in the air. I can see the FAA ruling that fitting a second set of sensors will solve all the problems and throw them on to the pilot.

    Given the proven unreliability of the angle of attack sensors there is a very finite chance that both will fail. Without data I cannot calculate a probability but based on hearsay data the probability of two simultaneous failures appears to be well below a one in a million chance of death. (When I was involved with the HSE in some design scoping they were looking at plane crash events of one in ten million as being an unacceptable level of risk).

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    #31886

    Ed P
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    @edps
    Forumite Points: 2,980

    Apparently a US criminal investigation has been launched:

    “On Sunday, the Seattle Times, the home-town newspaper of Boeing’s commercial division, published the results of a lengthy investigation into the federal certification of the 737 Max. It found that the F.A.A. outsourced key elements of the certification process to Boeing itself, and that Boeing’s safety analysis of the new plane contained some serious flaws, including several relating to the MCAS.”

    ““Federal prosecutors and Department of Transportation officials are scrutinizing the development of Boeing Co.’s 737 MAX jetliners,” the Wall Street Journal reported on Monday. “A grand jury in Washington, D.C., issued a broad subpoena dated March 11 to at least one person involved in the 737 MAX’s development, seeking related documents, including correspondence, emails and other messages,”

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    #31897

    Richard
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    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 1,833

    ED, yes that was the point I was hinting at when I wrote quote; there is yet more sobering comment about how well the FAA handled themselves and their safety roles in certifying the ‘new’ plane, end quote.

    Re your previous message comment, One problem in calculating a probability of two simultaneous failures is that there may be hidden dependencies or other links between the failing devices. This applies with mechanical, electrical and dare I say human ‘devices’. Bunging in a second doubtful reliability device will not ensure anything at all. If I had even a penny for each time a 1 in a million event happened, I would be very considerably richer than I am now. In the case that is in view at the moment the anti-stall system can with luck be over ridden, but then it immediately re-arms and tries to bring the nose down again, rinse and repeat until the ground is encountered. If both pilots realise that an automated system is going rogue, without cause or reason, perhaps they should at the very least be able to disable or slow down its cycle rate.

    The complex factors evoked by this cock up require more than a further band-aid of dodgy software slapped on its bum.

    A critical rethink of the methodology appears overdue.

    There are several hundred lost soul reasons for meaningful caution, (along with numerous brown trouser cases from pilots who survived). We might think we can avoid this dodgy device by declining to travel in one, but when (not if) the next error hits the ground, someone might be on that spot of ground already.

    Who will be that lucky soul be, you or me?

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