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Sloppy Fire Arms Handling in Programmes

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This topic contains 43 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by Richard 1 year, 9 months ago.

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  • #16633

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman

    I don’t know if anyone saw last night’s episode of silent witness. Though I have no fire arms training and not been in the business of using or touching them I was surprised at the way the ‘forensics’ people were handling them. A ‘machine pistol’ was retried from a fire damaged vehicle having been asserted as the source of previously unexplained gun fire. The firearm was supposedly set to automatic and to have resumed firing as it cooled down. A surprising suggestion but that is not what I am questioning, I would expect a an overheated weapon to fire off its rounds while being heated. Rather it was the rather careless way it was pointed about before doing anything to check the status of the weapon.

    Then a cache of supposedly illegal weapons was again found in a cupboard, once more a machine pistol was waved about and even pointed at various windows and objects with no indication of prior checking for its load status or anything else.

    Does that appear somewhat at odds to normal practice with anyone else?

Viewing 20 replies - 1 through 20 (of 43 total)
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  • #16635

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    You expect ACCURACY on a piece of fiction like this! Even the basic story lines with pathologists acting as front-line detectives stretches the limits of incredulity. However I dislike this program most for its incessant gratuitous violence towards women, and its frequent very left-wing propaganda.

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    #16636

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 2,303

    I guess we all get sensitised in our own ways. My father instilled a few ‘hygiene’ habits around things that could go bang, after his fairly specific wartime experience. He spent his time either guarding things or blowing them up. He disposed of over age and damaged explosives which were sometimes used to ‘assist the UK food effort’ by blowing tree stumps, rocks any pretty much anything else out of the way of farmers. He never did much soldering as such. He also cleared ordinance in Egypt. He became a stickler for handing explosives, guns and munitions the right way and had a respect for such as sweating gelignite etc. He used to claim that many disarmed explosive would happy burn off without the unwanted attention of detonators and that they would sometimes heat up brews over such a fire while on disposal works in the desert. What you never did in his book was take risks by pointing guns, of any size, or messing about with any devices until you knew they were inactive.

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    #16637

    dwynnehugh
    Participant
    @dwynnehugh
    Forumite Points: 1,530

    After 30 years in the police and quite a few PMs, I have yet to see any pathologist or pathologists acting as they do.  Do they ONLY have ONE case at a time?  I enjoy the programme – but then remember IT IS entertainment and not fact.  I used to love Judge John Deed and also Inspector George Gently – I have yet to come across a H. C. Judge who behaved like Deed or a DCI like Gently – several murders – no paperwork!!

    Great viewing, very entertaining – don’t read owt into it – it’s not like the real world.

    How many times on TV progs we see a police officer (normally DCI or above – making house to house enquiries???) where the witness always remembers seeing that blue car / van at location at time / date, saw 3 men, gives brilliantly accurate descriptions – hang on – just seen a squadron of pigs fly past my window ….. must investigate!!

    The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

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    #16640

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    For balance, I should have perhaps added that SWMBO is addicted to it. I sometimes watch when the background intrudes but I more often turn to finding something else on my Fire Tablet.

    edit – your father would probably have had apoplexy if he had met ‘Blaster’ Bates. That said I was once a gofer for him for a short while on one of his ‘*real’ blasting contracts and he was a tyrant with respect to safety and policing the area.

    *real compared with the japes he would get up to with blasting caps or detonating cord on one of his speaking tours.

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    #16643

    Dave Rice
    Moderator
    @ricedg
    Forumite Points: 3,848

    When you get a piece about the internet you see a rack of switches and patch leads as they actually have flashing lights.

    Anything to do with cyber security is a scrolling script.

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    #16644

    PlaneMan
    Moderator
    @planeman
    Forumite Points: 5,727

    My main annoyance in films/series is mobile phone use. The screen always stays on when it’s held against the head (ambient light sensor anyone?), sensitive texts/messages/updates are always visible on the lockscreen, they can track someone to within a mm using their phone signal but can’t stop their phones making daft noises for no apparent reason-the ‘boop’ sound when answering a call for example.

    I’ll leave it there for now.

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    #16645

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 2,303

    dwynnehugh, I cannot argue with anything you say because I have no alternative knowledge. To be fair they do come across more as a sort of ‘CSI plus’ team than anything else. I had either discounted the pathologist role or simply not acknowledged it in my thoughts.  Thinking about it pathologists were normally hospital based and dealing only with the item on the slab than roaming the countryside investigating how the body booked its passage to the icebox and slab. At one point my eldest daughter wanted to continue her training into pathology, I cannot really see her doing so as a field worker as portrayed. However, setting that aside, if someone is to do something I still feel they should either be shown doing it marginally close to the right way or suffering the consequences of miss-operation.

    Dave’s comment on flashing lights reminded me of an incident many years ago when the flashing lights were filament bulbs with a finite life rather than LEDs. A new system went live and could be heard doing its thing and displaying an array of flashing lights. So far so good. The equipment hall did have cycles of rising and falling noise as it operated, At the precise moment of a lull happened, the light panel was switched off to save the bulbs and everyone else nearly had to dash for the bathroom.

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    #16646

    JayCeeDee
    Participant
    @jayceedee
    Forumite Points: 3,780

    My main annoyance in films/series is mobile phone use. The screen always stays on when it’s held against the head (ambient light sensor anyone?), sensitive texts/messages/updates are always visible on the lockscreen, they can track someone to within a mm using their phone signal but can’t stop their phones making daft noises for no apparent reason-the ‘boop’ sound when answering a call for example. I’ll leave it there for now.

     

    It always makes me laugh when the subtitles call dial tone “ringing tone” and vice versa, also when they show a mobile phone calling out or hanging up you hear dial tone. Didn’t anyone tell the writers and sub-titlers mobiles don’t have a dial tone.

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    #16652

    dwynnehugh
    Participant
    @dwynnehugh
    Forumite Points: 1,530

    The one that really makes me cringe is the scenario that a very poor image can be so enhanced as to produce crisp, clear images sufficient to read the labels on them.

    The one that really hurts is that in real life scenarios so many people seem to think that finding witnesses is exactly like the TV – if you can find one – chances are he/she doesn’t want to remember anything and most certainly will not go to court.  Perhaps TVs should include a bit a reality occasionally – also a murder or several,  has yet to be resolved in 55 minutes, 3 advert breaks included!! ?

    The more you meet people the more you understand why Noah took animals instead of humans

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    #16657

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    Information from rubbish is of course impossible, but as this github shows it is possible to hallucinate a much clearer image based on sufficient training data (the image flips between the original and an hallucinated image). I would guess that this should easily cope with ‘regular’ images such as the clock face example, and similarly extrapolate regular features from a blurred face.

    However a defence lawyers would have a field day as soon as they saw the technical phrase ‘hallucinate’ the image!

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    #16678

    Bob Williams
    Participant
    @bullstuff2
    Forumite Points: 5,284

    SWMBO has stopped me commenting on certain programmes, SW included, on pain of painful strikes upon sensitive areas. That is due to the very episode that Richard talks about: I have been drawn to comment upon similar stuff in the past, but all the weapon handling errors Richard describes, sent me into laughter and pointing out the errors. SWMBO loves the programme, I can usually watch it uncritically, because I understand how far from reality it strays. It’s just entertainment I know, but you would think that the Beeb would be able to consult the kind of advisors who could steer them away from such stupidity. I really hated the last series, which diverged from reality so much that I could compare it with the ‘Big Brother’ nonsense. However, I thought that this series might not be so bad, until CIA and American Embassy lovers entered the picture.

    I recall my entry into Army training and my first experience on the Ranges. We were all given strict guidelines to follow, which became second nature after experience. Then one recruit experienced a jammed rifle, stood up and turned round to the sergeant in charge , “Sergeant, me gun’s stopped!” He was rugby-tackled to the deck by the Corporal and experienced some very loud advice.

    I tend not to watch programmes that SWMBO likes now, if I can help it. At least she does not watch any of the ‘Soaps’, which is a sign that her taste has not descended too far. The one thing that really does make me angry though, is hearing and seeing a TV programme described as a “Reality Show.” Say Whaaat? The shows invariably have nothing whatsoever to do with any reality that I am aware of. The programme I like atm, is “McMafia”, which is probably just as divorced from reality but at least is well acted and scripted. In view of what is happening to Wileyfox, I have a jaundiced view of Russians now anyway…

    If it’s the Psychic Network why do they need a phone number?

    What’s right is what’s left if you do everything else wrong.

    If women ran the world we wouldn’t have wars, just intense negotiations every 28 days.
    --- Robin Williams

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    #16691

    Tippon
    Keymaster
    @tippon
    Forumite Points: 2,663

    When you get a piece about the internet you see a rack of switches and patch leads as they actually have flashing lights. Anything to do with cyber security is a scrolling script.

    Someone wants to open a video file, so they hammer away at the keyboard. Any time someone needs a file from the server, they have to go to a server room full of flashing lights,  plug a pen drive into the specific server, then copy the file. If the file is somehow lost or destroyed afterwards, they can’t go back for another copy.

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    #16692

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 4,240

    In my day job, you didn’t get near the range for about 5 weeks, and you needed to pass basic weapon handling drills.

    You’re given your weapon on day two, and its with you all the time. You would get it out about 7 am and drop it back off to the armoury when your finisher for the day. if your off camp its yours 24/7. Including sleeping in your bag.

    Every time you enter/exit a building, pick up or pass on a weapon, you would always make sure it’s in a safe state.

    So by the time you have live ammo you are comfortable with the weapon, and all your drills are spot on.

    Late in training, we would use live rounds in the field, as far i know RM is only no SF force to do this. Actively shoot at each other. But with the trust that both sides shot high. It shows trust in your fellow oppos and shows you can still function under pressure. I loved this, as its the only way to experience a small fraction of coming under fire.

    As to films etc, it has never bothered me. But you never hear anyone counting out their rounds*, and calling for mags in the lull of the action.

    Basically a load of pissed off, scary, scared men f-ing and blinding wanting a runner to fill them up. And the runner telling them all to f-off as he is pinned down/too far away, or can’t keep up.

    *I would always put a tracer in 5th from last, as id always loose count. Also, my second round would usually be a tracer too.

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    #16695

    wasbit
    Participant
    @wasbit
    Forumite Points: 595

    I recall my entry into Army training and my first experience on the Ranges.

    I somehow managed to get my marksman’s badge, as a 15 year old cadet, on the Wyke Regis ranges near Weymouth using a Lee Enfield 303.

    Must have been July 1966 as I recall trying to get as far away from all the radios on Weymouth beach blaring out the world cup.

    --
    Regards
    wasbit

    Rig 1: Zalman Media Centre Rebuild (i3-540)
    Rig 2: Hp Elitebook 8440P (The Dave Laptop Special)
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    #16697

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    I still remember the ‘kick’ that a 303 gave you even when the darned thing was held properly. In contrast during the late 90s I went to one of the many PLA gun ranges near the Great Wall by Beijing and shot off a variety of guns from AK47s through to an Uzi mp (probably a PRC clone). None of them came even close to the old mule kick of a 303. Crazy place, for enough dollars you could even shoot off an rpg.

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    #16701

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 2,303

    Information from rubbish is of course impossible, but as this github shows it is possible to hallucinate a much clearer image based on sufficient training data (the image flips between the original and an hallucinated image). I would guess that this should easily cope with ‘regular’ images such as the clock face example, and similarly extrapolate regular features from a blurred face. However a defence lawyers would have a field day as soon as they saw the technical phrase ‘hallucinate’ the image!

    Would anyone be daft enough in real life to use such reprocessed images or films in real life? Sadly the answer is yes, the CPS did so recently in a case alleging indecent assault by a person carrying a load of bags and parcels, I kid you not. They ran the video at one third or one quarter speed (I cannot remember which) and allegedly showed that the accused had time, in spite of his parcels to carry out the assault, in seconds. The case failed.

    However, because of the way that video is recorded with its master frames and change frames only, it can sometimes be processed to improve clarity, an extension of the so called sharpening techniques available with still digital images. Though I venture to propose only for the purposes of suggesting, (not confirming beyond reasonable doubt), possible suspects who would be worth a follow up. Such video processing has required considerable processing power (though that is always changing) and would be more costly than most crimes would justify, partially due to the like high failure rate to get anything valuable. However, (big if coming) it scares some little sh’one’t into not committing a crime that could justify the artistic effort.

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    #16708

    Ed P
    Participant
    @edps
    Forumite Points: 7,622

    To me it is much more worrying that the technology now exists to make anyone appear to have carried out dastardly acts. The porn industry has apparently banned these deep fakes link, However IMO such processing should be made illegal in ALL cases if the person depicted is still alive. I worry that the 85% of technically illiterate people in the general population will believe everything they see, and malign manipulation of public opinion becomes an everyday occurrence .The comedic voice-over depictions of Have I Got News for You could easily become a dark reality if we are not careful.

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    #16716

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 2,303

    I agree that evidence spoofing is highly dangerous as in the example CPS failure I quoted. There is a fine line between spoofing or creating evidence and unearthing evidence and I suspect that few if any are equipped to understand, let alone do anything useful. I am also concerned about false doubts being created to allow the guilty to go free. So called social media has plenty of people angling to discourage or block sensible activities such as vaccinations.

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    #16719

    The Duke
    Moderator
    @sgb101
    Forumite Points: 4,240

    The onus is to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt. If that can’t be done, the guilty are not guilty in the eyes of the law.

    Knowing guilt and proving it are very different monsters, and the backbone of our, mostly decent, system.

    It’s the defense’s job to cast doubt.

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    #16726

    Richard
    Participant
    @sawboman
    Forumite Points: 2,303

    Steve, you are correct, however, while I would more readily accept finger prints, DNA and being found in possession of stolen goods I suspect others would more readily accept pictorial evidence. I am not sure about the current rules for evidence, several recent cases have failed through withheld evidence or more accurately not traced but available evidence. Who can, or cannot bring evidence forward and under what circumstances? It is much harder  to trace evidence when it is within something held by the other party, such as the mobile phones apparently held by the police as (unused) evidence. Happily those cases collapsed due to the sloppy pursuit of what are now declared as innocent parties. Sadly the CPS is justifying its sometimes alternative title of the Criminal Protection Service.

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