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<p style=”text-align: justify;”>Seeing as we tend to disagree violently on stuff but still keep talking I propose a new movement. Forumites against not listening. You never know we may just storm the middle ground ?</p>
So far I have never heard a poster on here say ” You can’t say that” . Unlike our current Uni debating societies ?
I never disagree violently. I disagree justifiably.
Heheh.
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.Too many Troll Hunters around.
However, I hear FaceBook offers unrestricted Troll hunting at the moment as the company has demonstrated it is incapable of doing it. ?
Imigration: Did you ever wonder how the USA has 300 million and australia has 25 million mosltey white uk origin folk.
Because when Q vic was on the thrown the uk had good medical care and we was breading like rabbits, exporting folk to the new world. QV had 9 kids the dirty cow.
Recent mass imigration the the UK has never happend before. All as we know unpresidented in very recent times. Why? Jobs! Time to export a few car plants me thinks. 🙂
Recent mass imigration the the UK has not happened since the 16th century
Corrected. Economic migration has always happened when it is either feasible or driven by wars or persecution.
Blame Camaron for foolishly taking out Gadaffi and turning Libya lawless, Bush/TBLiar for treating Iraq in a similar fashion, and the US/UK for deliberately destabilising Syria. You could probably throw in the US destabilising the states of former Yugoslavia but that is more difficult to prove. But please throw in some blame on Soros for good measure!
There were no humans in what became Britain and Ireland, before the Neanderthals moved in at the end of an Ice Age. They were driven out when the glaciers returned and eventually became extinct*. They were replaced by the first modern humans after the end of the last Ice Age. There has been constant, continual immigration since then: first Palaeolithic (Old Stone age) people replaced by interbreeding with other hunter-gatherers in the Mesolithic, to be replaced by interbreeding or competition with Neolithic (New Stone Age) peoples. When Doggerland was flooded and our islands separated from Europe, others still came. They brought the Bronze Age and the Iron Age, and agriculture from North African** people who moved West, bringing crop growing knowledge with them. Neolithics gave way to Celts, Romans arrived, Germanic peoples supplanted them, then came the Normans. And others, from all over the world, followed, in larger or smaller numbers, over the succeeding centuries.
*But their genetic inheritance lives on, to a greater or lesser extent, within the bodies of many modern humans.
** There is genetic material within the majority of the people of these islands, in varying amounts, to this day, from these North Africans. Geneticists have traced it to the areas of Syria and Iraq, where the cultivation and cross-fertilisation of the wild grasses that became wheat and barley, began.
There were no humans in Ireland before a Celtic people from the British Isles sailed across.
The point I am labouring to make here, is that there has always been immigration into the British and Irish islands. There is no such person as a “True Brit”, we are a cosmopolitan, racial mix from everywhere. After the first modern humans (Homo Erectus) left Africa around 2 million years ago and spread across the world, humans evolved and developed separate facial and bodily characteristics, but all humans can still interbreed.
So there is no separate human species. It’s a melting pot. Today’s problems of mass immigration have only one causal beginning: over 7 billion people, war, and dwindling resources. The Have-Nots will continue to press the Haves and it will get worse. I predict a future which will result in the Haves taking decisions to reduce the number of Have Nots by any means necessary. To survive, it may be necessary for the Have nations to adopt Hitlerian measures.
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.[…] So there is no separate human species. It’s a melting pot. Today’s problems of mass immigration have only one causal beginning: over 7 billion people, war, and dwindling resources. The Have-Nots will continue to press the Haves and it will get worse. I predict a future which will result in the Haves taking decisions to reduce the number of Have Nots by any means necessary. To survive, it may be necessary for the Have nations to adopt Hitlerian measures.
Can’t we just start by having National borders instead of letting more Have-Nots move in? Â Christ we’ve enough of our own Have-Nots visiting food banks.
Not to worry though, won’t be long before the Super Haves of the Big Corporates, the beloveds of the Super Beaurocrats of the Super National Blocs, will find a way to ensure those of us who are only marginally above being Have-Nots are kept happy.   Fancy a nice game of Rollerball, anyone?  Heck why do all the the Super Haves in that movie look so like so many EU Presidents and drink at precisely the rate championed by Junker………..LOL
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
VFM wrote:
” Can’t we just start by having National borders instead of letting more Have-Nots move in? ”
Our national border(s) will not survive Brexit. Scotland will immediately hold another Independence Referendum and will leave the UK. I have family and lots of friends up there and they all tell me that the Independence movement is swinging more towards voting yes. The same feeling is said to be growing in Wales. There are areas of England which share Scotland’s feelings.
I wonder if Cameron realises that his untimely, thoughtless, unplanned knee-jerk decision may just cause the UK to fragment?
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.“Can’t we just start by having National borders instead of letting more Have-Nots move in? Christ we’ve enough of our own Have-Nots visiting food banks.”
You probably should rethink that crass statement especially if said as an attempted ‘joke’.
Even the Conservative Government now appreciates it was their carp implementation of changes to the social security system that has forced hundreds of thousands onto the poverty line and into reliance on charity.
It would not surprise me in the least if Chris Greyling had played an interfering hand in the design of this debacle when he was Minister of State for Work & Pensions. It just has his touch of total inattention to detail and ineptness!
It most certainly was not said as a joke.
I do agree that Tory policies re austerity have contributed to such. As I have said over and over on this website I am not a Tory.  Go look at the posts above.  I am left of centre.  My anti-EU beliefs mimic Tony Benn’s.
The reality is that most EU immigration is low skilled low paid workers.  The very economic migrants that Bob was talking about; which on top of the Tory failings has not helped.    Now that that flood of migration has begun to slow wages are rising.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
Ehem – check the latest migration figures. EU migration down but non-EU migration at an all-time record high
EU down 61000 (mainly eastern bloc), non-EU UP 130000.
Not quite in line with your assertions.
Fancy a nice game of Rollerball, anyone?
Six of my mates from back then got roles as extras in the film – full expenses to Germany and good money, what’s not to like. I would have gone too, had I not had the misfortune to fracture my wrist and end up in plaster for 6 weeks!!!
European immigrates have been a net contributor for about 15 years. They make the nation richer paying for pensions and schools. The stuff they don’t really use. (on the whole).
Bob hilter gets the flack for his eugenics, but sadly it started here, moved to the US and Hitler just err… Took it a bit far. Point is governments have wanted to do this for over 100 years.
Hitler done us a favour (no disrespect to the dead meant, truly), but Hitlers antics killed the eugenics movement dead. He made it a dirty subject.
In America around the turn of the 20C, they held county fair type contests to see who had the cleanest blood lines etc all while sterilising alot of people deemed feeble mined. There are cases of babies that come form a ‘feeble’ mind, I’d it’s second generation, they was sterilised at birth. Many grew up to be normal minded.
Sure we was at it to. I’ve not looked into it, but do know there was high parliamentary movements to fid cities of the ‘have nots’.
I didn’t read VFMs statement as I’ll willed, more he was saying ‘we have enough poor to deal with, with out adding to them.
Though personally I think if the spread of wealth should be far more even, and there is no needed for any have nots, and if we didn’t have any, I’d happily want to share the wealth with other nations poor. After all we are all human. The borders are just lines drawn by rich men to hold control over the ones inside the lines.
One of the biggest and best tricks played on man is convincing us we should fight for our own prison walls, as that’s what boarders are. They are there to control us, not to give us freedom.
Freedom is to be free to wonder where you wish.
Can’t disagree with a lot of what you say, Duke, although I do not think the concept of Nationhood is simply a device to assist those who want control.  I think it goes far, far deeper in human nature deriving of pre-historic times and the importance of tribalism to one’s survival and is equally an extension of family instincts.
The concept of evenly distributing wealth I believe should be worked towards at the very least to the point where all humans’ basic needs are entirely fulfilled.  It gets far trickier to do beyond that once there is what could be termed a ‘surplice’ or ‘disposable income’.   Do you control how people use that or do you give them a free choice?   That’s the conundrum. Take away free choice and you’ll have a huge backlash from them.  Provide free choice and clever folks will find ways to manipulate those less gifted and get very, very rich.  As someone once said to me, what feels like a hundred years ago now – Communism would work perfectly provided we found a way to equally distribute both intelligence and morals.   I got the point.  Cleverer and immoral folks will always find a way to manipulate others and accrue indecent levels of wealth and power.  But if no-one is cleverer than anyone else then that can’t happen.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
Ehem – check the latest migration figures. EU migration down but non-EU migration at an all-time record high EU down 61000 (mainly eastern bloc), non-EU UP 130000. Not quite in line with your assertions.
I am entirely unsure what “assertions” I was supposed to have made and which are contradicted by the data you highlight.   Can you explain and point me to it.  You seem to suggest that I had commented about numbers, trends and where they were coming from. I don’t recall doing so. Truly please explain which comments of mine (i.e. my “assertions”) you are referring to.  I am quite genuinely baffled.   Could it be that you automatically assume Leavers will have view X and attribute such to me.
All that said I will take your words at the very least to be inviting comments on the subject from me.  So here goes.
Ed, the headline migration figures are misleading for a myriad of reasons.
A very high percentage indeed of the non-EU migrants are either highly skilled individuals that we need or are fee paying students.  It may surprise you but at Cambridge there are now more post-grad foreign students than UK students.  What may surprise you even more is that of the top ranked 30 universities in the world the UK has 6 or 8 depending on which ranking list one chooses.  The rest of the EU put together has not one in the top 30 on any ranking list.  Indeed in some rankings it has not one in the top 50.  Students from all over the world therefore want to come to the UK to study and Uni’s want their fees.   That they study here is not a bad thing as it creates an affinity with the UK that can be advantageous in future years politically and commercially.
What can be missed by the ill-informed is that financial dynamics incentivise Uni’s to favour non-EU students. By EU law UK Uni’s must charge EU students no more than they charge UK students.  However, this cap does not exist in respect of non-EU students.  They can charge far more. Universities have been accused of therefore of favouring non-EU students such that UK students are now being squeezed out.  The empirical data supports this accusation with the number of UK students at Oxbridge for example falling dramatically and non-EU students rising very sharply over the last decade.  All this said, due to the huge fees income from non-EU students their temporary admission could be considered a valuable ‘services export’.
The over all profile of EU immigrants is very different from non-EU migrants.  Yes, there are quite a few skilled workers and some students coming from the EU to the UK but the overwhelming majority of EU migrants are low paid manual workers.
I have said often regarding immigration that my view is that the playing field should be level.  We should be able to source the skills we need from anywhere they are available without prejudice.  It simply cannot be right that low paid unskilled migrant workers from the EU can walk in at will but if we need a highly skilled doctor, scientist, technician, etc., from a non-EU country both that individual and his UK employer face a huge and protracted battle to get that person in.  Is that what you want? In purely practical terms also, skilled workers irrespective of colour or race whose native tongue is English (i.e. Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc.) can on average, and I stress on average, be more productive more quickly than those for whom English is not their first tongue.  Yet an Eastern European hardly able to converse in English walk straight in but we must battle to get a Canadian Cardiologist in that we desperately need.  That cannot be right can it?
I am not a “cut the numbers no matter what Leaver”. Â I believe we should be able to admit any and all that we truly need from wherever and not be, as we are at present, obliged to enforce an irrational bias which is often directly contrary to our needs.
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During the Covid-19 Epidemic I will be wearing a mask and goggles while posting so that if I become infected I won't spread it to you.
“Now that that flood of migration has begun to slow wages are rising.”
This assertion is proven fallacious by the latest figures. Net migration into the UK is actually up.
I will however grant that fear of Brexit is playing a role in increasing wages. Recent TV interviews with management in small manufacturing companies generally state that they are having to pay their EU workers more in order not to lose them, and that has a knock-on into the general workforce.
Please see “Heads Up” started by Nolan (PM)
When the Thought Police arrive at your door, think -
I'm out.Today marks the second time that I have wanted to contribute to this thread and the second time that the gods of misfortune have frustrated me, third try now.
VFM, I very much side with your views on many well argued points. Certainly a level field is a desirable goal but can we have it when the societal norms push so many of those who live here in the wrong direction?
As long as it appears to be considered fine that attitudes such as the one I overheard at a job centre rule what hope is there for indigenous employment. On arrival with concubine and off sprout, the attendee was asked why they had missed the previous 5 interviews. Their answer was ‘
They was in the morning and I don’t do mornings.’
The situation of Oxbridge is interesting as the pursuit of education excellence is no longer seen as the point by other indigenous students. They wanted to be somewhere their own demographic was represented rather than to consider the educational goals of the place they were considering. I suggest that was not the objective of the overseas students who are vying to outnumber our own failing intake rolls and were prepared not only to pay more but also move outside their demographic comfort zone.
One other bit of employment folk lore that I was told by a younger person was that you should never say you have any sort of job if you are applying to someone you would prefer to work for. Apparently it was better according to this idea to appear unemployed. I suggested that this was hokum and that the inferior job was better than a current roll of backside sitting. The advice was followed and they got their preferred option.
Richard, I do not disagree that something needs to be done to engender a work ethic in the population. That has to start while people are young, but unfortunately the sorts of jobs that kids can do no longer exist in this age, and Health & Safety rules out many part-time jobs. You cannot even employ a youth as a part-time window cleaner without first sending them on a ladder training course. That however is a different problem and one which no Government has so far addressed.
Where I had difficulties with VFM’s post is that a lot of people at the Food Bank are not lazy, but are in the main victims of circumstance or ignorance.
The Benefit/Tax system is a mine-field for even intelligent well-briefed people. Universal Credit should have solved a lot of the problems but its implementation in which there was a mandatory 5 week delay in handing out cash caused huge poverty problems to those without savings. When my wife worked at the CAB she would come home sobbing on many evenings as she found it hard to deal with the misery that the Benefit System had inflicted on innocent people (e.g. a partner walks out, a death, job loss or other unforeseen disaster, gambling by partner and ignorance in managing a household budget etc).
Yes there are those that should be put in forced-labour squads, but the surprising majority do not like having to take charity.
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